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Clio III - Dipped headlight problem

49K views 54 replies 9 participants last post by  wyn burgess 
#1 · (Edited)
It all started when the headlight would not go out in daylight. The battery was disconnected and a bit of faultfinding followed during which the problem was tracked to the headlight relay. This had evidently been getting hot as it had started to melt the area of the fusebox underneath. Fortunately things had coolled down and all pins seemed to be intact and in position. Removing the fault replay and swapping in the one from the front fog light got the headlight going again.

Here is where things take a wrong turn!. The Renault dealer sold me a relay, but it had 5 pins instead of 4. There were 3 pins across the top instead of two. The Renault dealer said it should fit. It didn't. he offered to fit it himself and I said yes - and he found then agreed that it wouldn't fit!. He advised me to remove the middle pin of the 3 across the top as it was not connected.

Well, when I got home, I did as he suggested and put the relay in. No headlights. I put the old relay back - still no headlights. A bit of further testing determined that this relay has a diode across the relay coil - the old one doesn't. This means that the polarity needed to be correct - positive on the left. I checked the fog light socket and the polarity was indeed correct so I tried the relay in that socket. The fog light worked OK. I checked the polarity of the headlight socket and found positive on the right.

My question now is, have I blown a fuse somewhere in the relay control circuit? The fuses for the dipped and full beam headlights are underneath the row of 4 relays. All of them are OK. Other relays seem to work just fine. Its now dark, but the dipped beam headlights will still not come on. Main beam is OK.
 

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#3 ·
Well it has got dark here, but I did my best. The wiring loom gets in the way so I had to take a couple of photos from different angles, but hopefully the photos I have attached make clear the position of the fusebox and relays. The bottom rom of relays and fuses is covered by a black screen which I can't move out of the way. The part number of the fusebox is PP-T30-M10 and a clearer view of the fusebox comes up in a Google search.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=PP-T30-M10

Hope this helps?
 
#5 ·
Incidentally, I have also been told by the dealer that if the Relay doesn't work then they will need to replace the fusebox, which will cost 300GBP plus the cost of re-programming the ECU. I have seen the fusebox on eBay complete with fuses and relays for under 80GBP so I could replace it myself, but why on earth would the ECU need to be re-programmed? Isn't the fusebox just a collection of fuses and switches?
 
#8 ·
I'm not even talking about changing the fusebox it at the moment, just taking it out to examine it properly. I thought that there is just an outside chance that one of the contacts has got inadvertently pushed down but I now think it unlikely.

I used the pin I cut off from the new relay for some diagnostics. I soldered a wire to it and pushed the flat pin as far as possible into each relay pin socket in turn and took some readings using an analogue multimeter. For the headlight switch pins I was getting just shy of 14v one side and a small resistance to ground as would be expected across the bulb filaments on the other side.

For the relay energizing coil pins I got 14v on the LH pin socket and about 5v on the RH pin socket looking from the top. I do not understand the reason for this 5v.

To compare, I did the same on the foglight relay socket. I got 14v on the RH pin socket and 0v on the left hand pin socket. Testing continuity on the LH pin socket I could observe continuity when the foglight was turned on and open circuit when it was turned off - again as would be expected although its interesting that the negative rather than positive side is switched.

Evidently the foglight has positive on the RHS, whereas the headlight has positive on the LHS. The existing relays do not have diodes across the coil so polarity is not important, although it would be for the replacement I was sold. This replacement works fine in the foglight relay socket. Due to incorrect polarity it would have created a short in the dipped headlamp socket.

It has been suggested to me that the problem may be the stalk, although I am seeing both the dipped as main beam lights come on as expected on the dashboard when I operate the stalk, just that there is no dipped beam. Would effectively shorting the relay coil due to wrong polarity have been enough to burn out the stalk dipped beam contacts? Are they that fragile? I didn't notice any burned smell or anything in the car. although the door was open.

A replacement stalk from Renault is 124GBP so not cheap, so I do not want to replace it if it is not faulty. Are there any more tests I can do to determine whether the stalk is at fault?
 
#9 ·
I think I'd be hunting electronic suppliers for the right relay and go from there.
Although Renault (and other makers) will ascribe their own part number to a piece of kit, chances are it is a standard item from one of the big electrical manufacturers.
Any code numbers or names on it ?
 
#10 ·
Yes there are part numbers as follows:

80614
1503
ACV31012 M04

I found something under ACV31012 but although some of the electronics suppliers have them listed, none who ship to the UK seem to have them in stock. Digikey and Mouser lists them but have a lead time of 16 and 18 weeks! It might be worth buying although I'm not sure how long it will take for it to be shipped to the UK or what the import charges will be. I found on on eBay but the price is almost that of the brand new one. It doesn't seem like this part is easy to find.

In the meantime I have found a couple of stalks, one for 60GBP, the other for 80GBP, so this is not going to be cheap even for a salvaged replacement.
 
#12 ·
That makes sense of 5 pin v 4 and actually means dealer may have been sensible.

Try a test lamp across the coil contacts in the fuse box, diagonal corners according the diagrams.
See if lighting up when switch is activated.
You could also bridge the switch contacts to ensure lights come on if the relay was to activate.

Suppressor diodes are common across coils in these sort of relays, I am surprised that you say the old one doesn't have one. Or is that just not one shown on circuit on the relay ?
 
#13 · (Edited)
No the existing ones do not appear to have one, although there is nothing shown on the relay. I tested one them by connecting to a variable voltage PSU that also has current protection and set to 12v. I found that I could operate the relay with the leads connected either way to the coil. When I connected the new relay, the PSU indicated a short. Reversing the polarity allowed it to operate just fine. I eventually realized that on one side of the body the new relay, there is a small, difficult to view, diagram that confirms the presence of the diode.

That diagram has been helpful and seems to confirm the finding. What I have is part number ACV31012 which shown as a 'standard type', whereas the new part supplied is 'with diode inside'. The dealer seems to be correct that if the middle pin is snipped on the Micro ISO 1c type, then the relay in principle behaves like the 4 pin Micro ISO 1a type, except with one significant difference. The diagram confirms that in order for this relay to operate correctly, positive must be connected to pin 1. In the foglight slot, positive is on pin 1 which is why it does indeed work correctly in that slot. In the headlight slot, however, positive is on pin 2. All this seems to confirm what my findings have so far told me, so thanks to ours2012 for posting that spec sheet.

Unfortunately it also seems to re-enforce the possibility that I may have inadvertently damaged something by plugging that relay into the headlight slot and then turning on dipped beam.

I have tried the test of shorting across the position of the switch contacts (pins 3 and 5). Both dipped beam bulbs lit up indicating that both bulbs are fine and all is well with those two pins at least. I will try the test with a 12v lamp across the other two contacts and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
#14 ·
My thoughts:

Stalk must be working OK cos lights show on dash.

You can use foglight relay in headlight position, and put new relay (with the diode) in the foglight position, that will all work.

With known good relay in headlight socket, does dipped beam work?

If not suggests the electronic box that does the auto-lights function has the problem. The 5V reading is indeed very odd.

Else could be dodgy wire or connection, due to the overheating in the relay area.

If putting in a relay with a diode and that has fooked the electronic box (looks like a short-circuit) could we construe that damage is dealer's fault?
 
#15 · (Edited)
My thoughts:
Stalk must be working OK cos lights show on dash.
You appear to be correct about that. On advice from another Renault garage yesterday I purchased a replacement stalk as I was told that they are a known problem on the Clio. I have just tried plugging in the new one but it makes no difference. Let's hope I can get it refunded!

With known good relay in headlight socket, does dipped beam work?
No unfortunately it doesn't.

If not suggests the electronic box that does the auto-lights function has the problem. The 5V reading is indeed very odd.
Yes I thought that the 5v reading was rather odd. Where do I find this box and will disconnecting it mean that the ECH will have to be re-programmed?

If putting in a relay with a diode and that has fooked the electronic box (looks like a short-circuit) could we construe that damage is dealer's fault?
I would tend to agree with that the advice I was given was incorrect, but getting THEM to acknowledge it is another matter. I get the impression it will be an uphill battle.
 
#17 ·
What point are you getting 5volt,,, is there a possibility of putting a picture up, showing which pin point/connector is showing 5 volt.
Is your car, petrol or diesel.. wiring diagrams are different.
Also thought relays were not able to be changed on the clio 3.
Sure LD mentioned it, but over 12 months ago, .
(He posted a picture, in the last person thread for me,,,,,of a clio 3 fusebox , showing something about how the prongs open when removed)
Will see if I can find his PM, and then work out what month it would have been posted
 
#33 · (Edited)
Save hunting here is the image

View attachment 122089
That's a useful photo. It tells me at least two things. Firstly pins cannot be inadvertently pushed in as they sit on top of a PCB. Of course PCB tracks can still get damaged. Secondly that there is a second board underneath with electronics on it. I guess this is where the auto functions are. It looks like it will be worthwhile at least to remove and examine the boards. Since I'm not replacing the board, can anyone confirm that it is safe to disconnect battery and remove the board for examination without requiring re-programming?

I spoke with my regular service garage and they told me that they can do the computer diagnostics for 35GBP+VAT. However in the meantime, I am wondering whether any of these diagnostic tools that one can buy from eBay any good or will they be too limited?

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#22 ·
Didnt hep me find it, knew the date, knew it was a Friday,OR Saturday night, but going back to the date, It seems like the last post thread was busy in July.:grin2:
It was all you and StuJ, HE had problems with oil leaks back then>:)
Sure he has share in BP:wink2:
But are all them connectors showing as 4 pin relays
 
#24 ·
I've borrowed this image as there are no wiring looms in the way! I hope this explains where I'm picking up the voltages from. The car is a diesel and it has a late 2008 plate.

The good news is that the Renault dealer has refunded the cost of the stalk. The bad news is that they are now saying that the electronics that manage the dipped beam headlamp auto function are part of the ECH which is built into the fuseboard casing A new fuseboard will be 300GBP plus 75GBP for programming the ECH. The suggest I pay 60GBP for diagnostics which will then be deducted from the repair cost. They can't book in in until the middle of next week so I said I would think it over. I'm going to try the other Renault garage in the sticks. They might not be as busy. I thought that the ECH was a separate unit though?

They also warned me not to buy a replacement off eBay as it will likely have a code already on it and they will not be able to re-program it.

I am still not entirely convinced about what they are saying, but we have now ruled out bulbs, relay and stalk - so what's left?

A circuit diagram would have been very useful, but I have been unable to find one.
 

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#28 ·
You say "14V", that says to me "engine is idling & charging the battery ", or is the ignition key off?

If off, then those points are "always live", which TBH I suspected might be the case.

Not that I'm an expert on this subject by any means.

.
 
#30 ·
No, I have not had the engine running. I have just turned the ignition key on or off. Its actually a little shy of 14v, more like 13.8v.

I'm baffled by this, I was told by main dealer that I could not buy relays individually, the whole fusebox had to be purchased. Is is a RMD who has been 'helping' you?
As far as I know the UPC engine fusebox isn't coded so I would source another s/h and give it a try.
The dealer in question is Renault Leicester and I believe they are an RMD, yes. The relay part number he sold me is R7700414484. Maybe it depends on the model of fusebox?
 
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