: Clio 1.2 8v ***8211; Cambelt Replacement


stu76
3rd August 2009, 08:58 PM
hi all.

i am new to this forum and am after some advise please asap.

i am thinking of doing this job for a friend but need some info first or advise before i do this job.

apparently the person was driving the car at about 65 to 70mph then the car seem to die and stall ,no noises bangs etc , was recovered by recovery people.
suggested cambelt failure, as was not checked and over mileage for due change.
does anyone know on a 03 plate if cambelt has snapped will it do the valves damage too? or can we be lucky with changing the belt only?
anyone got a service manual please i can have for a 1.2 16v renault clio 03 plate authentique model.
thankyou to all whi reply and help me.

madnoel10
3rd August 2009, 09:09 PM
The chances of there being no valve damage after a timing belt breaks it about one in a million I'm afraid. But you'll not know the extent until you inspect the engine for damage.

When you mean "service manual" are you referring to the drivers handbook or a repair manual

stu76
3rd August 2009, 09:11 PM
The chances of there being no valve damage after a timing belt breaks it about one in a million I'm afraid. But you'll not know the extent until you inspect the engine for damage.

When you mean "service manual" are you referring to the drivers handbook or a repair manual

hi.
sorry i am after a repair manual if possible,
thankyou.

madnoel10
3rd August 2009, 09:14 PM
A "Haynes" manual may be what you are after.

stu76
3rd August 2009, 09:16 PM
A "Haynes" manual may be what you are after.

yes please.
any one can email me a haynes manual for this car that would be perfect asap.
thankyou.

madnoel10
3rd August 2009, 09:21 PM
The Haynes manual is only available in printed format - you know that old paper and ink thingy-my-bob. LOL!!!

stu76
11th August 2009, 07:57 AM
hi all.

i have a renault clio 1.2 8 valve just come in for repair.
driving it at 65mph then it lost power ,found out cambelt has snapped. made no noise/bang etc.

does anyone know would this have done valve damage too before i strip the car down and remove the head?

if anyone has had the same experience would like to have any advise.thankyou.

it has engine d7f 1.2 8 valve model on 03 plate.

any advise would be helpful.

many thanks.

madnoel10
11th August 2009, 12:41 PM
Hi Stu76 - when you say "come in for repair" does it mean you are a motor mechanic or involved in motor repairs- just wondering:)

stu76
11th August 2009, 06:30 PM
hi.

i am doing this job for a friend, i am not a garage etc, i do this as a hobby in my spare time! hope this answers your question, bit strange! why you asking?

wanted a few replies for help on this not a questionaire!

thanks.

madnoel10
11th August 2009, 06:36 PM
No offence meant - it's just your initial post gave the impression of being a garage or such.

Yes the engine is an interference engine and the likelihood of valve damage is very high indeed. The only way to be sure is to fit a new timing belt and see if the engine turns over by hand and check the valve clearances, etc.

stu76
11th August 2009, 06:41 PM
hi.
not a problem.

i did change the cambelt and it reassembled and it did just about manage to turn over then start but was a bit tappy and blue smoke from the rear, so i presume some of the valves are bent suspect exhaust valves only 4 of them hopefully ,prob bent or varped causing the slight tappy noise, what you think?

thanks

madnoel10
11th August 2009, 06:44 PM
Sound svery much like bent valves I'm afraid but you'll not know which ones until you remove the cylinder head. Even if a few look OK do a parrafin test just to be sure.
If you haven't considered it already it is best to renew not only the belt but also its tensioner as it tends to suffer a bit of punishment when a belt breaks

stu76
11th August 2009, 08:09 PM
hi.
i have removed the cylinder head, just done the daughting job of removing each valve in turn to check with valve compressor tool, i found only 1 bent valve, all others look ok, so i can presume this is the problem of the rough idle and smoke as before when i just changed the cambelt just to see extent of damage.


how do you line up the cambelt tensioner as its not very clear how to do it on this engine even from the haynes manual? you use some sort of pin, can not really see the alignment marks or how tight it has to be, any advise please?
thankyou.

madnoel10
11th August 2009, 08:33 PM
Don't be tempted to rely on a visual inspection of the valves - do a parrafin test it could save you the cost of another head gasket and bolts if you have to do it twice Plus a parrafin test would have saved you the trouble of removing all the valves.
I take you are renewing the tensioner.

stu76
11th August 2009, 08:52 PM
hi.

parrafin test? please advise on what this is please?

i found one bent valve, all other 7 looked fine on inspection.

i am renewing the cambelt tensioner, i just need some advise on what you need to do to get the correct tension as its not clear within the haynes manual on how to do it, i know its with some sort of pin or you can see alignment marks somewhere but not easiest thing to see side on! any help on this would be great please.
do you need to renew the star shaped head bolts upon refitting the cylinder head 10 of them or can you use again?

thankyou.

Jimmy the Jimster
11th August 2009, 09:01 PM
hi all.

i have a renault clio 1.2 8 valve just come in for repair.
driving it at 65mph then it lost power ,found out cambelt has snapped. made no noise/bang etc.

does anyone know would this have done valve damage too before i strip the car down and remove the head?

if anyone has had the same experience would like to have any advise.thankyou.

it has engine d7f 1.2 8 valve model on 03 plate.

any advise would be helpful.

many thanks.




Hi

The chances are you've bent at least 4 valves:(
The cam belt on my Laguna II 1.6 snapped bending all 16 valves.:mad:

madnoel10
11th August 2009, 09:12 PM
A paraffin test is were you remove the manifolds - turn the head on its side and fill each port with paraffin (white spirit will do) and let it sit for an hour or so and see if any leaks appear between the valves and their seats. Do this for both sets of valves.
If you remove the tensioner you will see a small groove in the rotating arm and one on the pulley body. Using an allen key rotate the tensioner arm until both grooves line up. Sometimes it is easier to view via the right front wheel arch after the inner liner has been removed.
The head bolts and the crankshaft pulley bolts must be renewed as they are known as stretch bolts and can only be used once otherwise they cannot maintain sufficient torque. There is also the risk that used bolts may break during the torque sequence if used twice. It is also essentail to follow the tightening sequence correctly.

stu76
12th August 2009, 07:09 AM
hi.

many thanks for your help on this one.
i will try out the parrafin test like you say and see what happens.

regards.

stu76
12th August 2009, 07:13 AM
hi.

i know its a stupid question but where do you pour the white spirit, you say pour it down the ports?
do i need to remove all the valve springs again and do it this way?

i presume most motor factors will supply head bolts etc for the renault clio, any idea on how much exhaust valves are each?

thankyou.

madnoel10
12th August 2009, 12:25 PM
Keep the valves fully assembled complete with springs, etc. Remove both manifolds and keeping the head on its side pour about enough paraffin down each port to ensure the complete head of each valve is covered. It is also a good means of testing any valves that have been replaced and reground.

stu76
15th August 2009, 06:51 PM
hi.

on this car how do you stop the lower crankshaft pully from turning when you are trying to tighten up the bolt in the middle?
i have spent all day today cambelt on/off 6 times or more so far, everytime i fit the cambelt with the alignment marks located correctly, the white lines on the timing belt at tdc top and bottom ,until i tighten the lower crankshaft bolt and the crankshaft turns and puts the timing belt out of alignment and moves on about 6 teeth on the cambelt.

please can you advise.
regards
stuart

stu76
15th August 2009, 08:28 PM
hi.

on replacement of a cambelt on a renault clio 1.2 8valve d7f engine, am i right in saying the 2 white lines on the cambelt will only align up once at tdc top and bottom, and then when you do a engine turn they will not be in same place after 1 revolution?

do you lock the crankshaft pully to get it to line up with alignment marks, to tighten it without it moving do you put the car in any gear ,then get someone to hold footbrake while other person tightens the pully/crankshaft bolt to torque setting?

anyone advise please?
thankyou.

stu76
15th August 2009, 08:57 PM
hi.

the cambelt snapped, bent 2 valves, removed head and replaced valves, head gasket, bolts etc etc.
replaced timing belt, the car will not start, will turn over about 3 times and thats it, wont start etc.
is there something i have missed, all looms etc seem to be in place, only thing i noticed is when i turn on ignition i do not hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds, can anyone advise before i look too far into this,camshaft sensor? camsensor? etc?
thanks.

tolsen
16th August 2009, 09:04 AM
The marks won't line up unless you keep turning engine around for a while. For the marks to line up after X no of turns, the number of grooves on the timing belt has to be exactly X times number of teeth on the crankshaft sprocket.
I assume the D7F engine is the infamous one without any woodruff key on the crank shaft sprocket. You need to lock the flywheel when torqueing up the pulley bolt. Any movement of the crankshaft when tightening pulley bolt will throw timing out. I also think you need a TDC pin to confirm correct TDC. Timing belt is to be pretensioned and set to vibrate at 145 +/- 5 Hz.
Conclusion: Make sure timing is correctly set before exploring other possible faults.
Fuel pump running for a few seconds indicates it operates correctly. It cuts out once pressure is at required level.

Lagdti
16th August 2009, 09:16 AM
Theres no need to lock anything on the D7F,you just line the cam pulley mark to the mark on the top of the cam cover and align the crank pulley to mark on the block like this......

http://www.renaultforums.co.uk/_User-folders/vBulletinImg/2009/8/{E9644144-2305-4B95-804C-5EE6A582CBE2}.jpeg

Fit the belt with the marks lined up,turn over twice by hand and make sure the marks line up again,if they do then the timing is correct.

If your saying that the engine only turns over three or four times then stops completely,I'd be tempted to check the connections to the battery and all earth connections,also check the condition of the battery.

madnoel10
16th August 2009, 11:36 AM
Assuming the crankshaft pulley has no woodruff key them you'll need to lock the crankshaft using a lock-pin.

Pat.w
16th August 2009, 11:54 AM
Stu

I've merged some of your threads together and deleted the rest. Can I ask that you do not start anymore new threads on this topic?

You'll get a much better response if you keep your questions in one thread, and it'll be easier to follow in the future.

Thanks

stu76
16th August 2009, 05:25 PM
hi;

thanks for all your replies on this topic so far.
after the strip down and rebuild today i finally got it all together and went to start the car, no fuel reaching the injectors upon turn of ignition, found earth strap from wire harness from cylinder head came off, refit that and hey preso, fuel line worked, started the car sounded lovely after headgasket/cambelt/10 bolts/etc were replaced, UNTIL i noticed the cambelt arrows were pointing wrong way upon cranking over car, Damm i said, anyway i will remove and refit cambelt, done this ,started up and clack clack would not start, so decided to strip head down and this time 4 belt valves!! what did i do wrong? i presently have pistons 1 and 4 at top and 2 and 3 down, anyone advise what procedure i should do now as dont fancy more expense and waisting time!
many thanks.

madnoel10
16th August 2009, 05:30 PM
Sorry to hear of your woes - bad luck.

Do exactly what you done before only put the belt on correctly this time - easily done when your ingrossed in other aspects of the job.
Sadly an expensive mistake as the timing belt, head gasket, bolts and valves will need replaced all over again.

Sure the man that never made a mistake - made nothing:)

As a matter of interest did you sue a locating pin for the crankshaft??

Lagdti
16th August 2009, 05:47 PM
Why would you change the timing again after you had the engine running?.

What marks are you looking at exactly?.You sound as though you had them right to start with........

stu76
16th August 2009, 06:01 PM
hi.

thanks for your reply.

yes looks like i have to do the job all over again, drat what bad luck, all because i have put the timing belt on correctly but the arrows were pointing wrong direction of belt direction, so i took belt off and refit it again, then when i did it went pear shaped, 4 bent valves, so strip down job again, hence why i had to do it again!

i presently have pistons 1 and 4 positioned at the top and 2 and 3 piston down in the chamber presently ,is this ok for when i put the head on and align the timing marks again?

i used a drill bit to lock the flywheel pully as there is a little hole near to starter motor so when i tighten the pully/crank bolt it stays stationary...any other ideas anyone for locking the pully without the pin tool!

thanks
all.

Lagdti
16th August 2009, 06:05 PM
Oh,I see.....the directional arrows.:)

Oh well,an expensive lesson learnt.

stu76
16th August 2009, 06:12 PM
yes i know what a expensive lesson learnt! and time!

anyway will try again when got the new bits and bobs.

do you know the correct way to lock the crank/pully bolt when you tighten it please? as i have been using a drill bit pushed through a little whole near to starter motor which locks good while tighten of pully bolt! is there anythe rmethod apart from the locking pin which i do not have!

presently with the cylinder head off, pistons 1 and 4 are fully up the top and 2 and 3 are down in the cylinder, is this correct and ok when i put the head back on again?
so put cambelt back on and align marks as pistons are and should be ok, does anyone know as dont want a repaeat stripdown!
many thanks.

madnoel10
16th August 2009, 06:14 PM
The locating pin is exactly that - nothing more nothing less and shouldn't be used as a locking tool. Also it is not advisable to use a drill as it is too brittle and easily broken. Should it break inside you woluld need to remove the sump to find the broken bits.

Ypu could try removing the TDC sensor which should give you access to the teeth of the starter ring on the flywheel and using a heavy screw-driver or such lock the engine that way. Just be sure not to damage any of the TDC sesnor pins or you'll have a lot more work ahead of you.

stu76
16th August 2009, 06:23 PM
hi.

so what is the proper way to lock the crank pully to stop is rotating when you tighten up the bottom crank/pully bolt?
do the pistons need to be in a particular order when fefitting cambelt, as mentioned pistons 1 and 4 are up and 2 and 3 are down in the engine presently before i refit the head is this ok?

so all i need to do is fit head etc etc ,realign timing marks and hope for the best? anything i have missed as done it perfectly first time and it ticked over lovely!

not at the moment!
thanks

madnoel10
16th August 2009, 06:40 PM
Hi Stu - it may be worth investing a few quid in a Haynes manual if you have no experience of working with this particular type of engine. It could save you money in the long run.:)

stu76
16th August 2009, 06:45 PM
hi.

yes i can align the cambelt up top and bottom ok with the correct markings, but how do i tighten up or lock the flywheel to tighten the pully/crank bolt as surely once belt fitted and i tighten the lower crank bolt it will throw the timing out, or wont it?

stu76
16th August 2009, 06:48 PM
hi.

i have a haynes manual.

so do i just align the timing marks, replace cambelt ,then tighten lower crank/pully bolt?

or do i fefit all, align timing marks, then try and lock the flywheel/crank then tighten up the crank pully bolt so it does not move once belt is on and looks lined up?

thanks.

stu76
16th August 2009, 10:08 PM
hi.

how do yuo get the engine back to tdc again, i have aligned the timing marks up on the lower pulley crankshaft and the camshaft, pistons are 1 and 4 at top of head and 2 and 3 are down. can i just refit the head, realign and tighten up the lower pully bolt?

has anyone got a diagram or photo they can show me of where the spacial pin or tool is to lock the flywheel or where it goes?
thankyou.

Pat.w
16th August 2009, 10:12 PM
Stu

Go back to page 5 and read post #25 again :)

Lagdti
16th August 2009, 10:22 PM
Your getting slightly confused now Stu,just take a deep breath and relax.:)

The timing mark on the crank pulley for the cambelt should line up with a mark on the block,once this is lined up you can stop worrying about.I'm pretty sure that the mark does signify top dead centre on number 1 cylinder,so your right in having the number 1 and number 4 cylinders set at the top.This isn't ideal when refitting a head as you have to make sure that the cam is also set at the correct mark if any of the pistons are at the top of their stroke as you can damage the valves if they are open and you tighten the head down,but that is maybe confusing the matter some what.

Once the crank mark is aligned,you need to align the cam mark,once these two are aligned the engine is timed as it should be.You fit the belt (if there are white lines on it then these should line up with the marks on the pulleys,I suspect that the marks will only line up with the belt in one position,but with this engine the lines on the belt aren't so important).JUST MAKE SURE THE TWO PULLEY MARKS ARE ALIGNED TO THE POINTERS ON THE ENGINE IT'S SELF,if you do this you can't go wrong.

Fit the belt,tension correctly,then this is the important part.Put the crank pulley bolt back in and turn the crankshaft two turns clockwise until the mark on it lines up (you have to go twice on the crankshaft as the cam goes goes half engine speed,two revolutions of the crank will turn the cam once).If the cam and crank marks now line up,the engine is now timed correctly.

Remove the pulley bolt,fit the covers etc back on,then fit the damper and the bolt.As the belt is now on,you can tighten the crank bolt up with the gearbox in gear and the handbrake on,if the engine turns it doesn't matter as the belt is on and is timed up properly.Once the bolt is tightened,take the car out of gear,and thats it,job done.

stu76
17th August 2009, 06:32 AM
hi.

many thanks for your reply on this cambelt.

the only question i have is this, you say align the marks top and bottom tension the belt and turn engine clockwise 2 turns from the lower crank bolt, do i need to lock the flywheel or use a pin to stop the flywheel moving and putting the timing out first? or just align, fit belt, put pully bolt in without locking flywheel? then turn twice then fully tighten pully bolt?

thnakyou.

stu76
17th August 2009, 06:40 AM
according to page 5 post 24 some say to lock the flywheel and others like you say not to lock anything just align the timing marks and turn by hand, so what is it do i lock the flywheel somehow once belt is on to fully tighten crank/pully bolt? as surely with belt on all lined up you turn engine by hand twice like you say, if aligned up again, you still need to tighten the pully/crank bolt without out losing the timing again or am i missing something here?

thankyou.

Pat.w
17th August 2009, 08:09 AM
I'd go with what Lagdti tells you

stu76
18th August 2009, 09:28 PM
hi.

i have got the hang of getting the belt and timing marks lined up now and doing valves/removing the head etc as ive done it on this car about 3 times now and getting a little frustrated now.

the only issue i have now is this, after my mistake of bending the 4 valves due to missalignment, i refit and replaced all yet again, fired it up today, it ticks over lovely ut its slightly tappy or bit more than slightly, i have been told by a local mechanic it just sounds like a valve adjustment with the guages! as this would all be out as i have replaced 4 to 6 valves out the eight so far, should have done all 8 really and done with it, but its just got a slight judder and tappy noise upon tick over and higher revs, would this likely be the valve clearences or =yet another strip down of the head and recheck the valves? do compression test? as dont really want to strip the head down a forth time as gets expensive!
many thanks.

madnoel10
19th August 2009, 12:11 PM
I take it the engine has valve rockers - if so get them adjusted properly. It won't involve removing the cylinder head.
Do you have a Haynes manual - if not it would be a cheap investment at about 25 - look at the money you would have saved.

stu76
19th August 2009, 08:55 PM
when you have had a cambelt snap, had the valves replaced after being bent, all refit back, had valve clearences checked, and you get a slight tappy noise would this just be its in need of a oil change after the head gasket was changed about 3 times, due to timing incorrect etc before end, now all runs fine with all new valves belt gasket etc? would water have entered the sump from doing the head gasket fit/removal.

any help appreciated.
thankyou.

martink
19th August 2009, 10:00 PM
Hi,water could enter the sump when removing cylinder head,you should always change oil and filter when removing head.