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1.5dci different power outputs same cc.

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Old 19th July 2011   #11
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Re: 1.5dci different power outputs same cc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coup View Post
nb the turbo on mine seems to work off a solenoid (ie variable).
I think you'll find the solenoid controls your turbo wastegate if you look into it a bit further.
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Old 20th July 2011   #12
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Re: 1.5dci different power outputs same cc.

The way I see it,history,
Unless there is definitive information to the contrary.
There once was a 1461 cc common rail diesel engine developed by renault that showed up around 2000 called the k9k.

This was available in 80bhp or 65bhp.
Assumption 1:
The 80bhp version was the same as the 65 bhp version in terms of internals.
The intake /exhaust /charge cooling,or not could have been added afterward,
Im thinking in terms of a production line that has got to make engines capable of holding 80 bhp minimum for warranty no matter what.
Why should we run a seperate line ,with a 65bhp maximum component limit.
Wouldnt it be simpler/most efficient to make all engines capable of holding 80bhp? .

2003(it seems)
Renault want a 100 bhp version of the 1461 k9k.Bad news is the engine as it is wont hold that power output,not for warranty purposes anyway.

They develop the 100bhp capable version. using the kkk turbo and strengthened internal components.to survive the increased reail pressure etc.
At this time the 1.9bhp diesel was 120bhp

Right now what do we have available in cars we buy.
1. there is a quoted 65-68 bhp 1461 cc diesel
2.there is a quoted 85-90 bhp 1461 cc diesel
3.there is a quoted 105-110 bhp 1461 diesel

Seems to me that prior to the end of 2003, the max tuned 1461 cc diesel renault were releasing was 80bhp.
After they developed the1461 cc k9k to be able to take 100bhp they were able to release 80 bhp versions which were now capable of 90 bhp for warranty purposes,
Does it not seem likely that previously max 80bhp versions now have the "strengthned" 100bhp internal components?.
I mean that in terms of "Since we have to make the strong engines anyway,isnt it better/cheaper to make em all the same". If that filters down to 68 bhp versions Im not sure but it would make sense..

Id like to have a tree/flow chart as to where the k9k engine types start to break into bhp versions with components.but that isnt likely anytime soon.

Yeh I mean my engines turbocharger wastegate seems to be controlled with a solenoid ,or at least looks that way.
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Old 6th August 2011   #13
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Re: 1.5dci different power outputs same cc.

Ive seen threads here on this topic before ,I mean the threads are older ,I hadnt seen them until recently
Some further investigation on my part :
This is mainly concerned with meg III diesel engines which is what Im interested in:

There seems to be an awfull lot of k9k engines !
Anyway..and this is direct from renault material.

85 bhp K9K F 830 no dpf
90 bhp K9K H 834 dpf
105 bhp K9K G 832 no dpf
110 bhp K9K J 836 dpf

Similarities : Injection system on all 4 engine types was upgraded at end 2008,well yeh with introduction of meg III.There is also some info about an injection system upgrade from ac delco to bosch at end of 2010 ,but I wont go into that
In 2009 the 90 and 110 bhp engine types listed above were supposed to be capable of a max rail pressure of 1650 psi,uprated from 1600 psi,and the injector types /part numbers are supposed to be the same(5 squirts per cycle).

Lets go crazy and assume the 50 psi increase in max rail pressure accounts for the 5 bhp difference on each engine type leaving aside the particle filter.

Differences :
Earlier in this thread I speculated that it would be more cost efficient for renault to make all internal engine components the same once they had to make "better ones " in the first place.
It seems according to the figures that this isnt the case ,not for the whole range anyway.

Of the 4 engine types listed above ,the 85 bhp one has a compression ratio of 17.6:1 ,the other 3 have a cr of 15.2:1.

This is purely to do with combustion chamber dimensions, it doesnt matter how much the charge is compressed before it enters the combustion chamber.
So it seems to me at least that renault have designated engines sold as 85bhp as the cut off point for "expensive internals".Thats not to say an 85 bhp engine cant be tuned up with a "box" or with increased turbo pressure,it just seems the 90+ versions may have more headroom.

Im once again "assuming" that 90-110bhp 1461cc engines are the same inside.

I can confirm that my engine is a H 834 of 2011 manufacture(theres a big white sticker on the side of the engine).

Max torgue on these 3 engines is developed at either 1750 rpm or 2000 rpm .(200nm for the 90bhp or 240 nm for the 105 or 110).

Leaving that aside what accounts for the 15 or 20 bhp difference .
2 possibilities or a combination of the 2:

1.different turbo/turbo waste management/max pressure.
2.different ecu/ecm mapping.

My turbo is located behind the engine and low down on the rhs,The only way I could read the part number was from below thru the rhs front wheelwell.

I stated above that turbo excess boost seemed to be controlled by a solenoid.
Ive now seen what looks like a pressure operated wastegate,ie the 90bhp turbo may not be vgt,but I cant be sure.
If there is a pressure wastegate the only option may be a ball and spring valve to increase pressure marginally.
The "electronickery" I havent investigated at all, I may get a can clip.

btw my borg warner part number turbocharger is :

54359710028
or 5435-971-0028 as they sometimes list it in 4-3-4 form
This part number is close to a lot of turbos for 80-110bhp renault diesel engines,but no ceegar.
ie borg warner doesnt list the part number when I enter it.
If anyone has any info plz post.
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Old 20th August 2011   #14
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Re: 1.5dci different power outputs same cc.

Hmm i seem to have made the same error here as I did in another thread quoting bar pressure figures as psi.
Cant edit it,nm.

1650bar= 24000psi approx.

This at least for Megane 3 90 and 110bhp engines is what renault quotes as their up rated figures.
Ive seen some tech sheets ,only been able to find clio ones so far different k9k engine type and they seem to be quoting around 1400 bar .

so engine 1 fuel pressure of 1650 bar quoted.The system must be able to operate at this pressure normally yes?

Similarly engine 2 figure of 1400 bar should also be according to renault a normal higher end of the scale pressure reading.

My Q is does anyone know what the ,PnE (my own made up term for pressure never exceed) is ?

What I mean is,renault says in their press release a fuel injection system has been changed/uprated to operate at 1650 bar, what % of upward variation for reliability will be built in to that .

10% like 1815 bar,5% like 1732 bar or what?

--------------------------
injector markings ,yeh Ive seen that every one coded individually..wow.

--------------------------
Aside from not being able to find info from the numbers on my turbocharger.
The 110bhp one operates at a slightly higher pressure to the 90bhp(same combustion chamber ratio).. so at max pressure it will be getting more air in.
Control of the pressure whether its vvt or not will be determined on readings from the MaP sensor yes?
Has anyone fitted a " resistor" / experimented with that to increase boost slightly.
Any good results?

Before anyone starts making signs of the cross.. put those evil things out of your mind etc.. its just a q

Oh some of the links Ive been checking that might be of interest :
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27244806/t...Xb07-Xb08-Xb09

http://www.uas-bg.com/meganii/eng/MR366MEGANE1.pdf

remember these are just some of the k9k 1.5 variations,the Megane one is an older type to mine , different injection system etc
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