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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

Sorry that my first post is a request for help! I have been doing my nut in trying to work out what is wrong with our 55 plate Kangoo as it's struggling to start. I have looked at the sticky thread created by the user Coventry but other than the leak-off test everything seems OK.

I'll do the leak-off test tomorrow if I can find time, but I'm extremely busy so before I do I'd like a little clarification as I'm confused by one particular thing.

- The fault codes I have found are P0089 (Fuel Pressure Regulator 1 Performance) and P0670 (Glow Plug Module Control Circuit). The 'STOP'/Engine/Coil lights only come back on during acceleration (i.e. overtaking on motorway).

The car will not start at all using the key, it will only bump-start, I'm not going to cry over the glow plugs, but the fuel pressure fault is a big concern. The car was taken to a local garage and before I got chance to ask them to keep back the fuel filter and check it for metal particles they had disposed of it. If it is the fuel pump disintegrating then I don't want to waste time or cash on the vehicle as it won't be worth fixing, but one thing that's making me feel a bit better is that the vehicle is still being used as a daily runner (parking on hills and bump starting every time).

It has done well over 2000 miles since it stopped starting under its own steam - surely if the fuel pump had self destructed and filled the fuel system with bits of metal the car would have come to a grinding halt by now??

The reason I'd like to hear opinions on this is because I know that if an injector is found to be an issue tomorrow, I don't want to spend cash replacing it if the others are due to fail soon due to a fuel pump issue - so any guidance on whether people think the pump could still be at fault despite the mileage would be really great.

Thank you,
J
 

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Do the leak off test.
While doing it, get a sample of fuel into a clean jar.
Let it settle and see what gunge if any settles at the bottom.
If there is any, see if it can be stirred from outside with a strong magnet.
If yes, chances are it is the pump self destructing.
Cannot discount that on any diesel but don't guess, simple checks will tell you.

Starting...
Fault suggests that pump regulator is being told to do X but resulting pressure isn't showing that.
Can be faulty regulator.... not unknown by any means.
Fuel feed issue...filter, leaks or loss via leaky injector.
 

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I would be sorting glow plug issues out..:wink2:
You will have low fuel pressure , your cranking the engine..
Not firing in, pump empties, and low pressure comes up.. happens on all diesel engines, unless its got an electric primer system fitted..

use some easy start, if the engine kicks in, glow plugs ..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Do the leak off test.
While doing it, get a sample of fuel into a clean jar.
Let it settle and see what gunge if any settles at the bottom.
If there is any, see if it can be stirred from outside with a strong magnet.
If yes, chances are it is the pump self destructing.
Cannot discount that on any diesel but don't guess, simple checks will tell you.

Starting...
Fault suggests that pump regulator is being told to do X but resulting pressure isn't showing that.
Can be faulty regulator.... not unknown by any means.
Fuel feed issue...filter, leaks or loss via leaky injector.
Thank you for the reply! I plan to do it later today so will update here - thanks for advice regarding fuel contamination, I was hoping there might be a way to detect metal particles still despite fuel filter being disposed of. The car has done at least 2000 miles since the issue arose though, would you expect the car to have stopped running by this point if it was pump disintegration?

I would be sorting glow plug issues out..:wink2:
You will have low fuel pressure , your cranking the engine..
Not firing in, pump empties, and low pressure comes up.. happens on all diesel engines, unless its got an electric primer system fitted..

use some easy start, if the engine kicks in, glow plugs ..
My partner took the car to a local garage at the beginning not long after the fault occurred as she was driving it at the time. They informed her of the pressure fault code, and they replaced the filter (and binned the old one). They didn't mention the Glow Plug fault code but said they'd checked them and that they thought the problem was the fuel pump and it would need replacing. They did not test any of the fuel system, only the diagnostics OBD test. I asked them to hold fire on the pump and I took the car home and scanned it which brought up both the previously mentioned faults but I'd been ignoring the Glow Plug one as the garage said they'd tested that.

Shockingly, I just checked the Glow Plugs this morning and all four of them were in excess of 2k ohms (one up to 50k!). I'm not sure what the garage looked at but either way I've ordered some new ones, which should help.

Would glow plugs actually stop the engine from starting though if it's cranked for long enough? I thought they were really only *essential* in pretty cold weather on modern diesels?

The dash lights that come on under acceleration on the motorway are concerning so I'll wait and see what happens with the leak off test!

Thanks,
J
 

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Modern DCIs do not need glow plugs for starting unless temps are towards freezing.
But they do make it easier and if there is another issue, lack of them may well prevent starting.


That the injection fault comes on when accelerating does suggest more then just glows.
But this does not mean pump is failing, only that something is.


See what comes back from the leak off test and get the fuel sample.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK guys, I did the leak off test, picture of results below - second injector from the O/S seems to have leaked off much more than the others, it was pretty keen even when just turning over. Did test for about 45-60 seconds.



In terms of the fuel contamination possibility, there was zero physical residue or particles in any of the samples and I could not cause any liquid movement with a strong magnet - so that's good!

I'm waiting on a set of glow plugs to arrive, and will see whether the car starts, and then look at sorting out the second injector. I'll probably take it out and give it a bit of a clean up before replacing it with a new/second hand one, just to try my luck and see if that fixes it as it seems fiddly to re-code them to the car when replacing.

Only question left I guess is what caused the injector to fail, and whether anyone here thinks that the leak off amount from injector 3 is worth worrying about as well?

Thanks for your help!
J
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi all,

Posted earlier but it didn't seem to go through... I did the leak off test, Holts 'Cold Start' got the engine going nicely, see picture attached below for results.

It seems that injector 2 is letting out much more than the others, though injector 3 is still a little more than 1 and 4.
I'll look to replace injector 2 with a new or used unit, but before that, since that's a little bit of a pain due to having to re-code it, I'll whip it out and try and clean it up a bit first and see if that works. Might save some cash too.

In terms of the fuel contamination, there was no residue whatsoever in either of the 4 samples. I tried to stir them using a strong magnet but it had no effect at all. The fuel here is beyond the filter though, so surely you wouldn't expect it to be that bad?

I'm waiting on a glow plug set arriving in the next couple days, and will pop them in to aid the starting. I'll likely not have time to sort the injector for a few weeks but hopefully the glow plugs might help kick the engine into life for now.

Lastly then as a summary - we've hopefully found the source of the warning lights under acceleration, and the source of the general starting issue and both fault codes. We've found reasonable signs that the pump is hopefully not at fault/breaking up, and instead it's just 4 glow plugs and one injector that needs replacing.

One final question(s): Is it normal for an injector to just break in this way, or is it usually a more sinister underlying problem? Also, does the leak off from injector 3 look bad enough to need replacement in your opinions?

Thank you again for your advice!

Josh
 

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Super fantastic Mod Technical Supremo Nice Guy
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need to put them in the same size bottles.. Measured quantity,
 

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Unless you have knowledge and proper cleaning kit, don't bother trying to clean up the leaky injector.
Get it to a specialist who can refurb it or supply a guaranteed rebuild.
Shop around for prices but last I went looking for was about 100 quid.
Don't forget will need coding into ECU.
Others are even though whether within tolerance depends on test details.

There is a reasonable chance this is what is causing your start issues.
Relatively low crank speed plus loss of fuel via that injector drops pressure to the point when injectors will not open.
Bump start getting it turning over a little faster, enough pressure, fires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi all,

Thanks again for the help. An update:

- I'm pretty good with cleanliness and meticulous parts, so I removed the injector and cleaned it up. It was pretty carbon covered, but I found no contamination within it. I removed the other 3 injectors and cleaned the dirt off them. The car started after about 6 seconds of turning over when jump starting, awesome (i thought). It then ran fine and drove for a ten mile journey. It then failed to start an hour later...

- I then removed the TDC sensor to check it (what a b*gger!) and it was covered in metal filings, so I cleaned it up and put it back on. The car started again (jump start only, not under own steam... but battery had plenty of charge??), but now the rev counter jumps from nothing to 1000 and back and isn't really sure what it's doing. Speedo has also stopped working I think. Have I put the TDC sensor back on wrong? I put it back in the same orientation so I'm confused.

- I removed the EGR and cleaned it out, but it moved smoothly and wasn't in a particularly bad state.

- Fault codes still read P0089.

I'm now going to remove and test the IMV sensor... but I imagine it will be fine. I don't understand why the car starts sometimes (but not always) when jump starting, and always when bump starting, but not on it's own (with a well charged battery....).

I'll also hook up my OBD sensor and crank the engine and check Rail Pressure. I am assuming it needs to be around 1000 bar, is that correct?

Thanks again!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OK.

The pressure regulator operates normally, but wouldn't start so I bled the fuel lines again and she started in about 2 seconds, while hooked up to another car. This seems to indicate that the pump is fine, so despite still being confused I'm getting more and more confident in the abilities of the pump. There were also no metal filings around the pressure regulator which is nice.

Things I'll check next: whether there are any metal shavings around the priming bulb (just in case - after the garage chucked the old filter I am still weary and want to keep finding a lack of shavings).

I might also do another leak of test to check the injectors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Done another leak off test, results attached. Less leak off than last time, but still big differences, the test was for 1.5 minutes this time, these tubes are 40ml capacity. Leak off amounts were the following (cylinder/injector 1 being gearbox end of engine):

4: 10ml
3: 35ml
2: 15ml
1: 10ml

Better than before, but the middle two are still worse (with cylinder 3 being way worse than the others....). I thought 35ml was the limit for the test so this doesn't seem too bad. I have another injector in the post though to replace this one.
 

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Super fantastic Mod Technical Supremo Nice Guy
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Have you tried some injector cleaner ( Millers put two doses in to 10 £).
Now go and give the car a bloody good thrashing , until the low fuel light comes on.
So should be looking at 60 miles here, DONT switch it off, make sure you do the miles in one journey ..
Now try the car for starting..
its really a percentage over the other injectors. of around 12% more that is classed as ok, anything above this figure, injector is fubar..
10ML + 12% = 11.2 ml
15Ml + 12% = 16.8 But even that is more than your best injector

When you go for the 35 Ml you are over 50% higher than the next best injector
Hope my maths is correct here, but anyway Number 3 is Fubar :grin2:
 

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Let those samples settle.... any crud collecting at the bottom would indicate fuel contamination issues.. if magnetic, pump issues...if nothing, put worries about pump to one side.

That one injector could be your start problem.

HP pump needs fuel to suck.
A leaky injector can let fuel run back to tank.

If that is the case, faster crank speed from jump or bump start would possibly not be enough.
But a leaky injector is also robbing pressure in the fuel rail and at normal crank speed, there may not be enough to open injectors and fire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Have you tried some injector cleaner ( Millers put two doses in to 10 £).
Now go and give the car a bloody good thrashing , until the low fuel light comes on.
So should be looking at 60 miles here, DONT switch it off, make sure you do the miles in one journey ..
Now try the car for starting..
its really a percentage over the other injectors. of around 12% more that is classed as ok, anything above this figure, injector is fubar..
10ML + 12% = 11.2 ml
15Ml + 12% = 16.8 But even that is more than your best injector

When you go for the 35 Ml you are over 50% higher than the next best injector
Hope my maths is correct here, but anyway Number 3 is Fubar :grin2:
Is injector cleaner actually any good? I hear really mixed things but personally have never seen it help an injector problem, I'm willing to give it a shot and rag the car around a bit though as it's a cheap fix if it works. Once the car is running it's always fine (even before any attempts to fix it). The RPM issue is gone too now, dash back to normal.

Thanks for the advice on amounts, the 3rd one is very clearly in need of sorting then. The injector that's in the post will swap that one out then I'll see if injector 2 is an issue.

Let those samples settle.... any crud collecting at the bottom would indicate fuel contamination issues.. if magnetic, pump issues...if nothing, put worries about pump to one side.

That one injector could be your start problem.

HP pump needs fuel to suck.
A leaky injector can let fuel run back to tank.

If that is the case, faster crank speed from jump or bump start would possibly not be enough.
But a leaky injector is also robbing pressure in the fuel rail and at normal crank speed, there may not be enough to open injectors and fire.
No crud at all in the bottom of the samples, nor in the previous ones. Good news.

I was hoping my cleaning of the injectors would help, and was very hopeful when it fired up afterwards, but after a short period turned off it wouldn't start again. The clean did reduce the overall amount of leak-off, but not enough clearly!

I've only just managed to be able to read the Fuel Rail Pressure, and even with just ignition on (no cranking) the reading jumps from 0 to 3500 bar (using ELM327 bluetooth scanner with software on laptop) so I'm also a little suspect of the Fuel Rail Pressure sensor. When cranking it sometimes gives a sensible reading, but often bounces around still.

Cheers,
Josh
 

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Try Millers, then report back,
New Mot laws have come in, Had a car a couple of weeks ago, 63 focus, emission label 0.7 actual car 1.9 Tried the usual driving it hard, got it down to 1.2
Two doses of millers gave it a good thrapping again, 0.5 it came back at..

I always try an injector cleaner first and a good thrapping, nothing to lose, and often will clean other parts of the system out at the same time ..
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Try Millers, then report back,
New Mot laws have come in, Had a car a couple of weeks ago, 63 focus, emission label 0.7 actual car 1.9 Tried the usual driving it hard, got it down to 1.2
Two doses of millers gave it a good thrapping again, 0.5 it came back at..

I always try an injector cleaner first and a good thrapping, nothing to lose, and often will clean other parts of the system out at the same time ..
Ordered some Millers online, should be here in a few days (I live ages from anywhere that sells things at reasonable cost).

The new injector arrived, fitted it and she started first time with no issues. I left it for a few hours and tried again with success. Long may it continue! A hefty bill avoided too given what the garage wanted to do. Will chuck the Millers in once it arrives.

Thanks for the help guys.
 

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Leave the fuel rail sensor alone.
See what the new injector and dose of Millers does.

The bouncing could have been air in the system due to the leaky injector.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hello guys,

I'm back! 😭

The problem has started again. The car is once again hit and miss with starting, but once going it runs fine for as long as required.

Occasionally the warning lights will appear on the dash, either when it's been turning over for a while, or when running but under load up a big hill or accelerating hard.

It's really weird that it ran without a hitch for over 18 months, in which time it has done over 40,000 miles.

I checked the glow plugs just in case, but they were new in 2019 so all worked, though a couple had a bit of gunk on them. I did another injector leak-off test, picture below:

188553


These are lined up by injector as if looking into the engine bay. The second from left is the one that got replaced before. The others are all much higher. Am I correct in thinking that the other 3 injectors need replacing?

Upon removing the drain plug on the fuel filter and draining some diesel into a clear plastic cup, there's very little in there and it's hard to tell, but a minute amount of particles seem to move when running a strong magnet along the bottom over and over.

I'm hesitant to think it's anything to do with the HP pump though as the van still drives fine and the injector replaced two years ago still looks to be fine, the pump is clearly delivering the fuel and if it was destroying itself surely it would have completely died by now?!

All very strange. What are your thoughts?

The vehicle is at about 175k miles but it's a converted camper so we want a few more years out of it yet.

Cheers,
Josh
 
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