[Sumaspikey]

Hi all.

I'm hoping one of you will be able to help me with this ongoing problem with my wifes clio dci.

We are having problems starting it, from cold OR warm. It is an intermittent problem and I would say it happens 1 in 3 times we try to start it....sometimes more. When its playing up, it may start, but will either stall straight away, or idle lumpy. It will also, sometimes, idle fine, but when you try to rev it, it feels like its running on 2 cylinders. More often than not, when you turn it off, and then back on again, it will be fine, but there have been 3 instances now where it will not start at all and the car has had to be recovered!

I gave the battery a good charge the other day, and it seemed better, but may be a coincidence. I have also just changed the fuel pressure reg and sensor, the camshaft sensor, and the glowplug relay. I did notice, AT TIMES, that there was a permanent 12v to the glowplugs, even after the light had gone out. I have also had a leak back test done on the injectors, and it showed them all to be fine.

We had the codes read the first time it happened and they are as follows:

p0830, p0089, df009(actuator relay circuit) , df064 (vehicle speed sensor error).

I must add, that once started and running right, its fine for the rest of the journey!

Any ideas?

 

[Ralph]

Have you checked or changed the TDC sensor? there's always a voltage on the glow plugs the ECU uses it to monitor if they are serviceable or not.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Wow...cheers for the speedy reply!

I was under the impression the camshaft sensor was the tdc sensor....I take it it's not! Where abouts is it located? The one I replaced was mounted by the cambelt cover.

Yes, I'm aware that they have a permanent voltage, but surely not 12v? I have had the meter connected when turning the ignition on, and it shows 12v...then when the light on the dash goes out, the meter still shows 12v continuously....until started. Maybe thats normal?

 

[Ralph]

Depending on the car the speed sensor could be fitted to the gear box or use the abs system, under
the bonnet nr the battery is a fuse come relay box, in there are about 5 or 6 relays 3 are the same mark them from were they came check they are the same then try swapping them see if you can work out if one is faulty, let us know how you get on.

 

[Ralph]

TDC sensor is at the gear box end just above the bell housing a half moon shaped plate with a wire the connector can give problems also if you remove the sensor and clean any rust and muck it can help, I think the voltage on the plugs is correct.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Well, I swapped the relays round but i still managed to get it to play up. I tried finding the tdc sensor. removed the intake pipe and pulled hoses etc back but couldn't see it anywhere. Is it supposed to be under the vacuum pump somewhere?

I did plug my obd thing in, and checked the live data while it was playing up. I got the mass air flow reading of no more than 0.6lb/m when revving and 0.4lb/m while idling. When it wasn't playing up, it would idle at 0.8lb/m and increase to 6-7lb/m when revving. Does that give you any clues?

Cheers for the help so far. :d

 

[mickeybo]

On your clio glow plug pre heating time is approx 15 sec's. After glow approx 25 sec's depending on ect sensor (engine coolant tempature) if this sensor is
faulty or it's wiring or it's 5v feed. Needs to be checked. Afterglow is to elimate black smoke & rough
idling on cold starts to check after glow switch ignition on wait for glow plug light to extinguish start
engine allow to idle check glow plug period hth Regards mickeybo

 

[Ralph]

The TDC sensor is hard to see its at the base of the cylinder block were it meets the gear box bellhousing roughly in the middle held on with 2 10mm bolts if I remember rightly.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Yep, cheers ralph, I just found it....it was nearer the back of the engine, held in with a 10mm bolt. I read that they were positioned differently over the years. I cleaned it off and took it out for a spin, but unfortunately it still happened. It's really strange as when it happens, more often than not, I can just turn the engine off, restart it, and it will be fine!

Mikeybo, cheers for the reply. By the sounds of it, the glowplugs are working correctly. Ive got a new set on its way so will eliminate those.

I'm rapidly running out of ideas, but really need to get it sorted. I don't want my wife getting stranded at the petrol station again.

If there's any experts local to Birmingham, I'd happily pay for someone to have a look?

 

[cb3]

Despite everything that has been tried it seems that a faulty tdc is still the possible problem and it has not yet been eliminated. It has been cleaned, often a cure for starting or running problems, but it may be faulty or it's connector may be dirty or corroded. The resistance of the sensor could be checked, around 750Ω, it's output when cranking, up to about 2V, and that the connections are clean. A replacement tdc isn't so expensive, around £25. Failing that next step would be a diagnostic check.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Despite everything that has been tried it seems that a faulty tdc is still the possible problem and it has not yet been eliminated. It has been cleaned, often a cure for starting or running problems, but it may be faulty or it's connector may be dirty or corroded. The resistance of the sensor could be checked, around 750Ω, it's output when cranking, up to about 2V, and that the connections are clean. A replacement tdc isn't so expensive, around £25. Failing that next step would be a diagnostic check.

Fair enough...but were do you get carank sensors for £25? I take it thats used? I cant find any on ebay, and my local motor factors want about £45. The ones on ebay have the metal bracket, but mine is just a single 10mm bolt fixing.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Right...untill I can find a crank sensor, I want to look into other options.

I've just been out cleaning the car, and i tried starting it. It decided to do its thing again, so I thought i'd describe, in a little more detail, the symptoms.

When i try to start it, it initially runs fine for 3-4 seconds, then it starts running lumpy, throttle loses response, then it dies. When i try to restart it, it immediately runs lumpy, and then dies....and does so every time. When it's doing this, a fair amount of greyish smoke comes out of the exhaust....possibly unburnt diesel? I connected the jump leads up, and kept trying, and it eventually got better...then finally, it cleared and ran fine again. It smoked a lot initially, but then cleared and was fine!

Does this give anyone any more of an idea?

 

[cb3]

What year and mileage?
No magic bullet here just trying to make some sense from the clues
Are there any messages coming up on the display?
You found some inconsistencies with the maf readings, did you try running with it dis-connected?
Operation of the maf and egr valve are connected electrically, the egr doesn't usually give rise to starting problems but can cause smoke and running problems depending upon whether the valve is sticking erratically or is stuck open or closed. egr problems tend not to flag display messages except "check emissions" in extreme cases.
Did you try Eurocarparts for a tdc?

 

[Ralph]

Wounder if you have a air leak on one of the filter connections or the primer bulb they can give problems, letting air in and the fuel runs back to the tank, do you see lost of air "there's always some" in the pipes on a rough start.

 

[Sumaspikey]

What year and mileage?
No magic bullet here just trying to make some sense from the clues
Are there any messages coming up on the display?
You found some inconsistencies with the maf readings, did you try running with it dis-connected?
Operation of the maf and egr valve are connected electrically, the egr doesn't usually give rise to starting problems but can cause smoke and running problems depending upon whether the valve is sticking erratically or is stuck open or closed. egr problems tend not to flag display messages except "check emissions" in extreme cases.
Did you try Eurocarparts for a tdc?

Provisionally....you may be on to something. The car wouldn't start again this morning. I removed the egr, and pushed the piston back in. It felt stuck in the open position. Replaced, and the car started straight up. Turned off, then restarted fine....turned off again, and then wouldn't restart. I removed the egr again, and again, it was stuck open. Pushed it back in, replaced, and car started fine. Would it be ok to leave it disconnected for a couple of days to see how it goes?

Thank you so much for everyones help so far! I really think we r on to something, but dont wana get my hopes up too much yet.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Iv had the egr valve off today and plugged it in while turning the ignition on and off. As a rule, when the ignition was off, it would open (piston out), and when on, it would close.....MOST OF THE TIME. Occasionally, it wouldn't close when I turned the ignition on so i gave it a tap with a screwdriver and the internal spring would pull it shut. I removed the cover of the egr and prodded around the internals, levering the valve open and closed. It was clear it was sticking! Got another on order.

I could also replicate the fault by putting the valve in the open position, and refitting without plugging it in. It would run briefly then stall. If I then removed it and closed the valve, it would run fine.

So to all of those people searching google and forums for solutions to intermittent starting problems.....it costs nothing to thoroughly inspect the egr. Lever the piston in and out to ensure it moves semi-freely. I couldn't figure out how to dismantle it further to remove the piston fully, so I think a new one is the only way to go.

Thanks to everyone who helped, and well done cb3 for correctly diagnosing!

 

[cb3]

The egr should be closed. If open it is a mechanical rather than electrical fault. Make sure it is thoroughly clean, pay special attention to the shaft carrying the valves where it enters the body as a hard carbon build up there inhibits its operation.
Disconnecting the egr will throw up a fault message on the dash and won't help if it is stuck open. It should close with a positive "snap" if opened by hand or by applying a 12V supply.

 

[Ralph]

If you leave it disconnected it will after 3 or 4 starts put the engine light on the dash and may show the pre heater light as well but if you replug it in it will clear the fault lights after a few runs, you may have to have the new valve set up to the ecu.
Pull the valve open and clean the shaft carb cleaner works well.

 

[Sumaspikey]

Cheers Ralph. The replacement didn't arrive today as expected, so I went and bought some carb cleaner. It worked a hell of a lot better than the wd40 I used before. It moves nice and freely now. I've refitted it and all seems well so far.

I have been pretty lucky really, as I have only spent £50 on eliminating parts to finally arrive here....of course with help from u guys. The funny thing is....my first port of call was a so called Renault Specialist in Birmingham.....the first thing he said to check was whether or not mice had been chewing at the fuel pipes underneath!! :d

 

[Billyjo2002]

I experienced random starting problems from the 'clicking' and non-turning over described elsewhere to turning over and non-starting to odd dashboard light sequences.

The issues seem to have been cured by:-

1) Change of camshaft sensor
2) Change of crankshaft sensor
3) Cleaning of EGR valve
4) Replacement with new (1st/leftmost) 'start' relay in the under-bonnet fuse/relay box

I suspect the latter (relay) was the most influential change. For now it seems to be starting OK.

I was able to change all of the above with a basic set of tools and some scuffed knuckles!