[nomish]

Engine management light on and flashing, lack of power, slightly rough idle - car no longer used as a result as damage to the cat is possible. 4x old spark plugs renewed which wanted doing anyway, all pencil coils have exactly same resistance and when disconnected one by one they make a diffrence to the running of engine which proves they are working. Expensive snap on diagnostic reader used at a garage and detected ALL pencil coils faulty with random multiple cylinder misfire, which myself and mechanic said is v v rare - most likely something else or the ecu. Pencil coils are v easy to renew I know but 4x if not faulty would be a waste of money. He recommended me removing ecu and having it tested which I can as the test place is local, if faulty the test is removed from the refurbishment which carries a lifetime guarantee. Car has just gone over the 90K miles, petrol, owned it for 14yrs no previous issues like this.
Any thoughts or advice?
Thanks...

 

[Dancingdad]

A bit of detail on the chain of events please.
You got a misfire problem.
You changed plugs
You still got a misfire
Showing 4 coils random misfire on diagnostics (que?)
Or was it random cylinder misfire on all 4 pots?

Please confirm or correct?

Leave ECU alone at the moment, very rare for them to fail despite what tinternet may have you believe.

 

[ClioAutomatic]

I'd be tempted to look at the Crank sensor, not sure where it is on the 2L Espace, but on the 1.6 Clio it was a pain to reach ....

 

[ours2012]

Funny I was thinking Fuel filter, and thinking bet this is inside the tank, and its getting starved of fuel
Hence multiple misfires reported by ECU

 

[Dancingdad]

I'm just wondering on the sequence.
Not unknown for duff plugs to take out coils and if only plugs replaced, duff coils taking out the new plugs.
Or something common as above
Or possibly duff new plugs such as LVR has shown a couple of example of
Or wrong plugs

 

[nomish]

A bit of detail on the chain of events please.
You got a misfire problem.
You changed plugs
You still got a misfire
Showing 4 coils random misfire on diagnostics (que?)
Or was it random cylinder misfire on all 4 pots?

Please confirm or correct?

Leave ECU alone at the moment, very rare for them to fail despite what tinternet may have you believe.

With a budget borrowed ecu reader code P0 300 {random multiple cylinder misfire} no other faults shown. On a snap on tablet type diagnostic reader at garage it said in the fault description as all coils are defective and a engine speed sensor issue he mentioned I think. Garage is sending me the report via email as their printer would not print - I have not had the email yet, doh. This issue started after putting fuel in on a return short journey, where I normally purchase fuel.. I did put the right fuel in, we don't have a diesel, and I checked with the fuel station the next day to see if any other users had reported anything and the same pump was still in use, just coincidence I guess.

 

[nomish]

Funny I was thinking Fuel filter, and thinking bet this is inside the tank, and its getting starved of fuel
Hence multiple misfires reported by ECU

Good theory - I was also thinking fuel filter but would that show another fault on the diagnostic reader? My fuel filter has not been changed for quite a few years now.

 

[nomish]

Good theory - I was also thinking fuel filter but would that show another fault on the diagnostic reader? My fuel filter has not been changed for quite a few years now.

Anybody know WHERE this is on an Espace 1V petrol please? I know what it may look like cant recall ever seeing it.

 

[Dancingdad]

Ta....better to know the details then guessing...chase the garage for the email, could be useful.

I'm one who is suspicious about the descriptions that readers give...often they seem written by an illiterate Chinaman and then translated by someone who is also illiterate and doesn't speak Chinese.
And can lead you up the garden path without some thought.

Cannot discount fuel issues, especially on an older vehicle where things like Lambda sensors may not be as robust...few years back Tesco totalled many sensors with too high a sulpher?? content.

Would agree likely to be something common rather then all 4 coils going down at once and as it came on suddenly, can probably discount plugs even if old.

Fuel filter in a petrol is usually in the tank, part of the pump/sender assembly.
Not sure where access would be on Espace?

Thinking on fuel, is your motor E10 compliant and if not, what have you been putting in?

 

[nomish]

Ta....better to know the details then guessing...chase the garage for the email, could be useful.

I'm one who is suspicious about the descriptions that readers give...often they seem written by an illiterate Chinaman and then translated by someone who is also illiterate and doesn't speak Chinese.
And can lead you up the garden path without some thought.

Cannot discount fuel issues, especially on an older vehicle where things like Lambda sensors may not be as robust...few years back Tesco totalled many sensors with too high a sulpher?? content.

Would agree likely to be something common rather then all 4 coils going down at once and as it came on suddenly, can probably discount plugs even if old.

Fuel filter in a petrol is usually in the tank, part of the pump/sender assembly.
Not sure where access would be on Espace?

Thinking on fuel, is your motor E10 compliant and if not, what have you been putting in?

Thanks for your thoughts. Just looked through my electronic manual and the fuel filter is in the tank and is part of the fuel sender unit {pump}, so no wonder I have not seen it. Further info - it did come on suddenly. This fault is also always on, not intermittent. Fuel type good question that I have been trying to confirm for over a year now. I have been putting E5 in although the car may take E10, but to be on safe side I stuck with E5.

 

[nomish]

Thanks for your thoughts. Just looked through my electronic manual and the fuel filter is in the tank and is part of the fuel sender unit {pump}, so no wonder I have not seen it. Further info - it did come on suddenly. This fault is also always on, not intermittent. Fuel type good question that I have been trying to confirm for over a year now. I have been putting E5 in although the car may take E10, but to be on safe side I stuck with E5.

The mechanic never mentioned any crankshaft sensor or TDC sensor and was looking at loads of stuff on this diagnostic tablet in real time.

 

[Dancingdad]

The mechanic never mentioned any crankshaft sensor or TDC sensor and was looking at loads of stuff on this diagnostic tablet in real time.

TDC is often a difficult one to spot on diagnostics.
It is the sensor that controls the firing and may not be recognised as missing a beat or on the wrong place.
Often worth pulling out and cleaning, they can get clogged.
Usually relatively cheap to swap but inspect it first.

If you decide to pull the fuel filter, do not open the tank (or drop it if that is needed) with a full tank.
The retaining ring is part of the structure and heavier the tank, more likely it is to distort.

 

[nomish]

TDC is often a difficult one to spot on diagnostics.
It is the sensor that controls the firing and may not be recognised as missing a beat or on the wrong place.
Often worth pulling out and cleaning, they can get clogged.
Usually relatively cheap to swap but inspect it first.

If you decide to pull the fuel filter, do not open the tank (or drop it if that is needed) with a full tank.
The retaining ring is part of the structure and heavier the tank, more likely it is to distort.

Thanks I'll have a look at the TDC sensor, as for the fuel I would like to but I fear it will be too difficult especially when its within the fuel sender unit. If the crankshaft sensor is goosed info I've picked up is that the engine will not run at all, but could be missing a beat as you suggest. Is the TDC & Crankshaft sensor the same item? There is an error code I think for crankshaft sensor within diagnostic systems.

 

[nomish]

Thanks I'll have a look at the TDC sensor, as for the fuel I would like to but I fear it will be too difficult especially when its within the fuel sender unit. If the crankshaft sensor is goosed info I've picked up is that the engine will not run at all, but could be missing a beat as you suggest. Is the TDC & Crankshaft sensor the same item? There is an error code I think for crankshaft sensor within diagnostic systems.

Within my electronic manual I have found a fuel flow check and what to expect delivery of fuel in 1min, which may be useful at some point.

 

[Dancingdad]

Is the TDC & Crankshaft sensor the same item? There is an error code I think for crankshaft sensor within diagnostic systems.

Yes, same beast.
There may be an error code but.....
A common issue is that the TDC is goosed totally so beasty cranks but will not fire as it is not getting a signal from TDC.
But the system doesn't time out or show an error, it just waits for a signal that has gone awol.

The feedback loop for TDC is more what isn't or is happening.
IE cranks but no start...could be TDC
Misfires...could be TDC
Thought and investigation proves or disproves, it is a could not a certainty.

 

[nomish]

Thanks for your input. A local specialist Renault garage diff to the one I used yesterday, said he is familiar with the F4R's and also stated he had never heard of an ecu cause failure - so I am holding off on the ecu test. Going to inspect/clean etc the TDC sensor today. Chased previous garage and I now have a printout of diagnostics yesterday.14 - Circuit Vehicle Speed Sensor UEE 276 & 275 Ignition coil circuit 2 & 3 UEE, Ignition Coil circuit 1 & 4 UEE, 278 Distructive misfire. UEE = Unidentified Electrical Error.
Cheers,

 

[spacecadet]

Just as an aside, what year is your car? If it's 2003 or later the 2L can use E10.

E10 petrol and what it means for your Renault | Marriott Motor Group Renault

E10 petrol and what it means for your Renault - read more with Marriott Motor Group Renault in Ipswich, Suffolk. Stay up-to-date with the motoring world and discover the latest offers and car models.

www.marriottmotorgroup.co.uk

 

[Dancingdad]

and I now have a printout of diagnostics yesterday.14 - Circuit Vehicle Speed Sensor UEE 276 & 275 Ignition coil circuit 2 & 3 UEE, Ignition Coil circuit 1 & 4 UEE, 278 Distructive misfire. UEE = Unidentified Electrical Error.

I'm still on TDC as a first check though it could be something else causing the misfire
Seems to be something common that can affect all cylinders.
So TDC, fuel feed, poor fuel, inlet air issues, throttle body (or IAV if yours uses one..Idle Air Valve), Lambda.... Just of top of my head.
Again a basic explanation but there is no direct feedback that says a coil has failed.
What the system does is assume a coil issue if it detects a misfire... which can be simply that it didn't recognise a bang when it expected the cylinder to fire.

To go back to fuel, was it a top up or a fill up, running on empty or what.

I'm trying to gauge the likelihood of duff fuel.
ie, if you put a gallon of diesel into a tank that already has 50 litres of petrol, it will have a different effect to a gallon of diesel in an empty tank (example, not saying that is what happened and you do seem to have checked)
Cannot rule it out....or can you???

 

[nomish]

Just as an aside, what year is your car? If it's 2003 or later the 2L can use E10.

E10 petrol and what it means for your Renault | Marriott Motor Group Renault

E10 petrol and what it means for your Renault - read more with Marriott Motor Group Renault in Ipswich, Suffolk. Stay up-to-date with the motoring world and discover the latest offers and car models.

www.marriottmotorgroup.co.uk

2004 year of car.

 

[nomish]

I'm still on TDC as a first check though it could be something else causing the misfire
Seems to be something common that can affect all cylinders.
So TDC, fuel feed, poor fuel, inlet air issues, throttle body (or IAV if yours uses one..Idle Air Valve), Lambda.... Just of top of my head.
Again a basic explanation but there is no direct feedback that says a coil has failed.
What the system does is assume a coil issue if it detects a misfire... which can be simply that it didn't recognise a bang when it expected the cylinder to fire.

To go back to fuel, was it a top up or a fill up, running on empty or what.

I'm trying to gauge the likelihood of duff fuel.
ie, if you put a gallon of diesel into a tank that already has 50 litres of petrol, it will have a different effect to a gallon of diesel in an empty tank (example, not saying that is what happened and you do seem to have checked)
Cannot rule it out....or can you???

TDC examined and connections and cable ok. Bit the bullet and swopped out the TDC/timing sensor as I know if its duff its a non starter but if it was on its way our ie not reading correctly above cranking speed it may have been that - for elimination purposes. Changed, bit smoother at idle but lacks power with a vibration and after 1min flashing eng management light on, so fault still on. doh.
Fuel was a £30 top up onto a less than 1/4 tank {the tank is large} - so not much fuel added but more added than what was in it. It was def. Momentum E5 and I never use diesel for anything. I also remember looking at the middle window and the amount in the window of the pump itself. Middle window is Momentum I checked as I walked past today.
Thanks
BTW my new plugs I gapped slightly large at a tight 1mm, due to difficulty in finding correct gap size. I got 1.1mm and 0.9mm info at the time, I have since been informed by garage its 0.75. Then looking at my electronic manual later I find two more sizes depending which make of plugs are used. I can always re-gap smaller - I dont think it would be that critical and I did make sure I was v careful placing the plugs in the centre of the hole, and gently {lesson learnt from many yrs ago}.