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Espace 1V 2L petrol ecu or 4x pencil coils? ***Solved***

2K views 37 replies 5 participants last post by  Dancingdad 
#1 ·
Engine management light on and flashing, lack of power, slightly rough idle - car no longer used as a result as damage to the cat is possible. 4x old spark plugs renewed which wanted doing anyway, all pencil coils have exactly same resistance and when disconnected one by one they make a diffrence to the running of engine which proves they are working. Expensive snap on diagnostic reader used at a garage and detected ALL pencil coils faulty with random multiple cylinder misfire, which myself and mechanic said is v v rare - most likely something else or the ecu. Pencil coils are v easy to renew I know but 4x if not faulty would be a waste of money. He recommended me removing ecu and having it tested which I can as the test place is local, if faulty the test is removed from the refurbishment which carries a lifetime guarantee. Car has just gone over the 90K miles, petrol, owned it for 14yrs no previous issues like this.
Any thoughts or advice?
Thanks...
 
#2 ·
A bit of detail on the chain of events please.
You got a misfire problem.
You changed plugs
You still got a misfire
Showing 4 coils random misfire on diagnostics (que?)
Or was it random cylinder misfire on all 4 pots?

Please confirm or correct?

Leave ECU alone at the moment, very rare for them to fail despite what tinternet may have you believe.
 
#6 ·
With a budget borrowed ecu reader code P0 300 {random multiple cylinder misfire} no other faults shown. On a snap on tablet type diagnostic reader at garage it said in the fault description as all coils are defective and a engine speed sensor issue he mentioned I think. Garage is sending me the report via email as their printer would not print - I have not had the email yet, doh. This issue started after putting fuel in on a return short journey, where I normally purchase fuel.. I did put the right fuel in, we don't have a diesel, and I checked with the fuel station the next day to see if any other users had reported anything and the same pump was still in use, just coincidence I guess.
 
#5 ·
I'm just wondering on the sequence.
Not unknown for duff plugs to take out coils and if only plugs replaced, duff coils taking out the new plugs.
Or something common as above
Or possibly duff new plugs such as LVR has shown a couple of example of
Or wrong plugs
 
#9 ·
Ta....better to know the details then guessing...chase the garage for the email, could be useful.

I'm one who is suspicious about the descriptions that readers give...often they seem written by an illiterate Chinaman and then translated by someone who is also illiterate and doesn't speak Chinese.
And can lead you up the garden path without some thought.

Cannot discount fuel issues, especially on an older vehicle where things like Lambda sensors may not be as robust...few years back Tesco totalled many sensors with too high a sulpher?? content.

Would agree likely to be something common rather then all 4 coils going down at once and as it came on suddenly, can probably discount plugs even if old.

Fuel filter in a petrol is usually in the tank, part of the pump/sender assembly.
Not sure where access would be on Espace?

Thinking on fuel, is your motor E10 compliant and if not, what have you been putting in?
 
#10 ·
Thanks for your thoughts. Just looked through my electronic manual and the fuel filter is in the tank and is part of the fuel sender unit {pump}, so no wonder I have not seen it. Further info - it did come on suddenly. This fault is also always on, not intermittent. Fuel type good question that I have been trying to confirm for over a year now. I have been putting E5 in although the car may take E10, but to be on safe side I stuck with E5.
 
#12 ·
The mechanic never mentioned any crankshaft sensor or TDC sensor and was looking at loads of stuff on this diagnostic tablet in real time.
TDC is often a difficult one to spot on diagnostics.
It is the sensor that controls the firing and may not be recognised as missing a beat or on the wrong place.
Often worth pulling out and cleaning, they can get clogged.
Usually relatively cheap to swap but inspect it first.

If you decide to pull the fuel filter, do not open the tank (or drop it if that is needed) with a full tank.
The retaining ring is part of the structure and heavier the tank, more likely it is to distort.
 
#13 ·
TDC is often a difficult one to spot on diagnostics.
It is the sensor that controls the firing and may not be recognised as missing a beat or on the wrong place.
Often worth pulling out and cleaning, they can get clogged.
Usually relatively cheap to swap but inspect it first.

If you decide to pull the fuel filter, do not open the tank (or drop it if that is needed) with a full tank.
The retaining ring is part of the structure and heavier the tank, more likely it is to distort.
Thanks I'll have a look at the TDC sensor, as for the fuel I would like to but I fear it will be too difficult especially when its within the fuel sender unit. If the crankshaft sensor is goosed info I've picked up is that the engine will not run at all, but could be missing a beat as you suggest. Is the TDC & Crankshaft sensor the same item? There is an error code I think for crankshaft sensor within diagnostic systems.
 
#16 ·
Thanks for your input. A local specialist Renault garage diff to the one I used yesterday, said he is familiar with the F4R's and also stated he had never heard of an ecu cause failure - so I am holding off on the ecu test. Going to inspect/clean etc the TDC sensor today. Chased previous garage and I now have a printout of diagnostics yesterday.14 - Circuit Vehicle Speed Sensor UEE 276 & 275 Ignition coil circuit 2 & 3 UEE, Ignition Coil circuit 1 & 4 UEE, 278 Distructive misfire. UEE = Unidentified Electrical Error.
Cheers,
 
#18 ·
and I now have a printout of diagnostics yesterday.14 - Circuit Vehicle Speed Sensor UEE 276 & 275 Ignition coil circuit 2 & 3 UEE, Ignition Coil circuit 1 & 4 UEE, 278 Distructive misfire. UEE = Unidentified Electrical Error.
I'm still on TDC as a first check though it could be something else causing the misfire
Seems to be something common that can affect all cylinders.
So TDC, fuel feed, poor fuel, inlet air issues, throttle body (or IAV if yours uses one..Idle Air Valve), Lambda.... Just of top of my head.
Again a basic explanation but there is no direct feedback that says a coil has failed.
What the system does is assume a coil issue if it detects a misfire... which can be simply that it didn't recognise a bang when it expected the cylinder to fire.

To go back to fuel, was it a top up or a fill up, running on empty or what.

I'm trying to gauge the likelihood of duff fuel.
ie, if you put a gallon of diesel into a tank that already has 50 litres of petrol, it will have a different effect to a gallon of diesel in an empty tank (example, not saying that is what happened and you do seem to have checked)
Cannot rule it out....or can you???
 
#17 ·
#21 ·
That's good news on the TDC, I wouldn't have swapped it but as you say, it should totally eliminate.

Given what you have said on fuel, I am almost tempted to say drain some and see if your lawnmower likes it...assuming a petrol mower in reasonable running order.
I keep coming back to that it all started when you topped up.
I believe you on the diesel BTW.... chances are you can't get a diesel nozzle into your filler anyway...they're bigger.
But still wondering if fuel has something to do with it

With whatever diagnostics available, can you get any live data? Lambda and fuel trims?
 
#22 ·
Yeah I did it to eliminate it especially when one of the faults is engine speed AND the sensor is 18yrs old. Someone suggested locally on FB that it cant be the fuel as it would not have worked through the fuel lines in that time when I noticed the eng being weird. It was 10 - 15 secs from topping up. I have no access to live data or equipment that will. I am contacting a local specialist Renault garage Monday {not Renault dealership} who is familiar with F4R engines and is pretty confident of solving it. But their diagnostics "Main dealership type Diagnostics" - I forget the actual wording are more expensive, and I think the garage is not cheap in labour. But what I have learnt from a few days ago when a snap on diagnostic tablet was used - its not the fact of how expensive the diagnostic equipment is but the knowledge of the person interrogating the results and piecing together the jigsaw, so to speak. Your right about the diesel nozzle cant fit in the filler, we were just going through that me and the wife.
The last thing I want is a whole list of things changed, some expensive {4x injectors for example which they will not be at fault} and the fault was a single sensor somewhere.... or bad fuel? The car has not much value left in it now, we have had it for 15yrs.. My next door neighbour has a petrol lawnmower in good condition. Hhmm
Thanks,
 
#23 ·
Given the short time, whoever on FB may well be right with time after refilling.
I just don't like the possible cause and effect.
Though one has to be careful, I lit a match and the house burnt down may be failing to mention the 50 year old wiring that was the real culprit.
Sorry I can't give you much more, decent diagnostics and some thought and knowledge is likely the way to go.
There is a list of things to ponder on
 
#26 ·
Was the vehicle moving for this engine speed sensor code
Or the vehicle was stationary

If stationary IGNORE , ITS not a fault, just how the software reads the code
Clip will read this , and show it in Blue, instead of black writing

If all 4 faulty, engine would not start, so it aint that
You will struggle to get it run on two
The multiple fault code is where there is either a cam sensor fault, or fuel system fault
If p0313, was the fault code check fuel filter


now Usually with a Cam sensor fault is given even though its not a cam sensor itself thats at fault

You get
The cylinder the fault started at , say p0301 ,( thats cylinder 1 fault code, but could be for any of the cylinders, so the 1, would be a different number for the cylinder the fault was started from, ( this is what actually triggers the cam sensor fault,) then the multiple misfire fault , then the cam sensor fault , but the cam sensor will show in the fault code list ( Unless some tart has cleared the faults once, or disconnected the battery, then that fault will 99.9% lost )
So unless Cam sensor is in the list
Not going to be that for multiple misfire fault is detected, if it was 1 complete coil pack, then you could say multiple misfire code is coil pack
Multiple misfire detected can be caused through head gasket failure , ( But usually on the Vauxhall range) not come across a head gasket fault on a Renault for over 20 years, but will be signs other than water in the oil, you would use water on a Renault engine
So can cross that off the list
ECU its deffo not because you would also get an internal fault code related to the ecu as well as the fault code, and that code would come first
AND there are lots to say what part of the ecu has failed

So we have a few reasons for the multiple misfire faults
Now its upto you to work out which one of the issues you have, if other associated fault codes are also involved
adding these together, and then using this, to work out what is the actual fault

Now you understand why us on here ask what seem to be stupid questions at times
We are trying to find the missing info off you that you have not thought off, but we know its part of the whole picture
 
#27 ·
Thanks for your interesting reply. The garage diagnostics using their Snap on tablet diagnostic bit of kit gave out a few days ago 14 - Circuit Vehicle Speed Sensor UEE 276 & 275 Ignition coil circuit 2 & 3 UEE, Ignition Coil circuit 1 & 4 UEE, 278 Distructive misfire. UEE = Unidentified Electrical Error. It was done stationary. I find your info "The multiple fault code is where there is either a cam sensor fault, or fuel system fault" interesting. I did not know there was a cam sensor as well as a TDC/timing sensor which is at the bottom of my crank/flywheel of which this sensor I have changed out for elimination purposes { I know if its goosed there will be no start} but if it was reading at motor over rpm but starting to fail at idle and higher rpm it could have been that, after all it was 18yrs old.
Thanks,
 
#31 ·
Car booked in at Renault specialists {independant} for Wed, but the prospect of a reasonable cost effective repair AND no damage to my cat converter seem v thin to me. Mechanic suspects fuel system or injection system at fault, he says he can dip my tank for contamination but di not say what contaminates he can detect. I have enjoyed my 15yrs ownership but in reality it is an 18yr old car. :( but looks in v good condition for its age!
I could not see any cam sensor or cam for that matter within the diagrams?
Thanks.
 
#32 ·
I could not see any cam sensor or cam for that matter within the diagrams?
It's one of those that in many cases that a crank sensor can do all that a cam sensor can.
And not every engine has a cam sensor.

See what the "experts" say.
Chances of CAT being damaged with no codes suggesting that is IMO unlikely given your actions.

You can dip tank, even send samples away for analysis but common contaminants will often be shown by taking a sample and letting it stand in a clean jar. Solids will settle, water will settle, ethanol floats, diesel floats I think but may mix and stay mixed....... unfortunately, composition cannot be spotted by eye
 
#35 ·
I've always been an optimist.... may not be right as often but I have more fun.

Excess fuel can damage a CAT.... but my understanding is that this is often because the fuel burns and can cause too high a temperature....you do not seem to have driven it far so fingers crossed.

Or to put it another way, I would not be swapping the CAT unless the fuel issue was sorted and I was seeing Pre and Post CAT lambda figures that said it was bu55ered.
 
#36 ·
UPDATE SOLVED:
Firstly thanks to all people for your kind help and advice, and I have learned a couple of things along the way - and the fault was so simple and I'm a bit mad at myself for coming so so close to finding it at the start of the investigation, oh well a lesson learnt.
Fault was No 4 pencil coil - simple as that, found in 10mins. Highly likely no damage to my cat although the MOT will define that next year. The Independant Renault Specialist today opened up {genuinely} on his day off and was very helpful and knowledgeable - he actually found the fault not exactly through the diagnostics although they were plugged in. He has lent me his test pencil coil whilst decent {middle of the range not the cheapest} all 4 pencil coils will be changed tomorrow {1yr guarantee} fitted free of charge as its within the 1hr diagnostic time. A job I could easily do but he is sourcing a decent make of pencil coils that will last and is popping them in free of charge and he has kindly lent me his test coil. Car runs as it used to now and lives on!! Where the U.E.E. error on all 4 spark coils came from on previous diagnostic at another garage I don't know. And a good job I never bothered with the ecu testing that was recommended...
I have learnt something that I will not forget, when I tested the coils last week by disconnecting one at a time then running engine to see if is the same rough idle {which would prove that coil is not working} and is significantly better when connected back - this is the wrong method, and the resistance being identical on all 4 pencil coils means nothing. The correct method is have engine running and lift off the pencil coil from the spark plug by 1/2" or so and listen for the clicking of the spark. Simples.....with hindsight.
I highly recommend this guy who specialises in faults in Renaults and some other makes and apparently customers travel from wide and far to see him, and no doubt had the fault been a lot more in depth he would have found it and he is the man to go to. He has a small quite neat garage unit as far as garages go and uses electronic devises to the full for booking in and receipts etc.
Thanks folks...my Espace lives on for now.
 
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