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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This has been going on for some time now and there appears to be very little help on the LR forums.
Car is a 2009 diesel and generally starts first time on the button. Starting from cold appears to have gotten progressively worse since lockdown last year. No fault codes or messages.
Car cranks for several seconds before it will start. Once started it runs fine, no hiccups etc, therefore I assume it is not air in the fuel lines. Car does not have a priming fuel pump only the high pressure pump to the fuel rail, hence changing the fuel filter can sometimes cause issues on restarting.
Thought it could be air intake related so removed throttle body and cleaned it. Checked the operation of the throttle body and it works fine. Recently decided to remove the inlet manifold as older Freelanders are prone to swirl flap failure. Removed the swirl flaps as a precaution and gave the manifold a good clean.
Considered the possibility it could be injector related so did a purge of the system with 'Liquid Molly'. Ran approx 1 ltr neat through the system from the inlet side of the fuel filter. Engine sounds really nice but cold start still appears to be there.
Going back to possible fuel issue, I checked live data of the fuel pressure and it takes several seconds before any pressure, then it jumps straight up to operating pressure. When the engine is switched off the fuel pressure almost instantly drops to zero. Not sure but I assumed there would always be some pressure in the fuel rail.
Would appreciate any thought's (y) .
 

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Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
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there was a problem on many jags like that turned out to be a bad fitting fuel filter cant remember which 2 makes to use but sure one was bosch (x-type 2.0D 2.2D)
 

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Grand Scenic 1.6 2007
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5,290 Posts
Diesel start needs pressure and for that cranking speed. At a wild guess, presuming it's been laid up a bit, your battery is not cranking fast enough. Can you see what speed it is actually managing. They vary a bit but I would have thought getting up for 200 rpm was in the ball park.
 

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Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
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Not familiar with Freelander engines so this is based on general not specific.

What you are describing is not a cold start issue IMO.
It is an issue in starting when the vehicle has stood for a while.
Which may sound like the same thing and have the same end result but have different causes.

Your description and reported readings from the fuel rail says to me that the HP pump is struggling to find fuel to pump.
They are very good at pumping fuel and sh1t at pumping air and self priming.
When a motor sits for a while, it either relies on fuel being held ready in the lines by suction.... this typically would have a squeezy primer bulb.
Or by fuel being fed to the system by a low pressure electric pump.... and fuel being held by suction.

In both cases, a minor air leak into the fuel feed lines can let them empty.

If you have no primer bulb, you should have an electric lift pump, not usually in the tank with diesels but I ain't going to guarantee that.
AFAIK, there is no other priming system for a diesel.

I would be looking towards what priming system you have, electric pump or what and whether it is working.
And for any obvious leak places...filter connections, grease them, any sign of wear on any fuel feed pipes?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi bugsb.
You are correct there was and still is an issue with fuel filters but these tend to also cause issues whilst accelerating if I remember correctly. As a matter of interest I usually use Bosch filters as that is all my local motor factors keep in stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Brendan
Car has not been laid up, just not used as much as it would have been. Battery is fine, when not in use I keep it on a maintenance charger as Freelander's are notorious for issues if battery is low. Can't give you a specific rpm for starter but I know it is very strong.

DD
I would agree with the fuel issue in part.
The car does not have a secondary fuel pump. It does have one in the fuel tank but that is only used to transfer fuel from one side of the tank to the other as its a saddle tank over the prop shaft.
Fuel lines appear ok and I always put a small amount of silicone grease on the quick release connections of the fuel filter. Fuel filter is always a Bosch.
Can't see any air bubbles in the fuel lines as they are not clear plastic.
After reading all the suggestions, I think I'll make up an additional piece of fuel line with a priming bulb to go before the fuel filter. I can then prime it when the engine is cold and if it starts first time then that is the issue.
I think the only culprit could be the filter connections.
 

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Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
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Hmmmm.... been looking at the freelander system and yup, no priming system......which is about as much use as cheap knicker elastic.

I suppose that they rely on the filter being higher then the HP pump and maybe a non return check valve in the line from the tank to filter..... but makes it a right PITA should you change filter or run out of fuel.

I stick with my thoughts.
If there is a non return valve in the fuel feed line to filter, that may be seeping
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
DD
Not sure about a non return valve in the fuel system I'll have to check. It would make sense to have one.
As far as the fuel filter position, I would say that it was slightly lower than the high pressure pump.
Never had an issue with air after changing the filter in all the years we have owned the car. I always change all the filters on every service regardless of the maintenance schedule.
Don't no if you are aware but it is a Peugeot engine in collaboration with Ford and also used by Citroen.
 

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Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
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Yeah, did know it was Peugeot engine and Ford used it.
Very incestuous these days, time was when if you had a Ford it was a Ford engine, even to the silly situations where two parts of one group used two different engines for the same thing (Rover/Triumph V8s) but now they all seem to share.
My Kia has to all intents and purposes a Merc engine that was tweaked for production in Korea by Hyundai.
My Qashqai has a Nissan Engine but many of them have Renault engines while those who bought a Kadjar have to all intents and purposes bought a quashqai.... but we digress.

I am still of the opinion it is fuel related and still cannot work out the lack of primer.
If it were cold related, ie misreading coolant temp sensor or glow plugs it could be affecting start but that doesn't account for the delay in fuel pressure rising and immediate start when it does.
To me that is saying that the pump isn't being told to pump or cannot pump.

It could be a delay to let the glow plugs get nice and hot, I know there was a difference on my Scenic between summer start time and winter.... not a number of crank issue but a delay before it would crank.....cannot discount that sort of thing if it is only a delay when it is cold outside?

I see what you mean on the pump being higher...Bosch pump driven from the camshaft by the looks of it.
In a way that makes it worse but I suppose it comes down to relative heights of fuel in the tank and the pump.... if not held or pumped, liquid flows downhill and levels will equalise.
If the tank is higher then the pump, there would be no need to prime.

And found some pretty pictures of your saddle tank and fuel pump.... are you sure that only equalises levels and doesn't pump anything forward?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi DD
Pump in the fuel tank definitely just takes fuel from a dormant side of the tank to useable side. The tank has a float in each side.
Glow plug circuit will only activate at temperatures of 0 degrees and below.
I think you are on the button when you say air is entering the system. I have checked all the connections which appear ok. Only ones I could suspect are the four on the fuel filter.
Removed cleaned and lubricated with silicone grease. It appears to be a lot better but every time I do something I have to wait till the next day to try and replicate the issue.
As regards to the priming of the fuel system, LR states there special tool should be used to prime the system whenever any work is carried out. This includes a filter change. The special tool is two pieces of fuel pipe and a primer bulb in the middle. This is temporarily fitted between the fuel line from the tank and filter inlet.
As I said I use Bosch filters but have just found out that PSA original filters are Purflex. Trying to get one of those.
Car does run a lot better with the swirl flaps removed though. Much more responsive.😊
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Apologies for not replying to Brendan.
Checked battery again and these are the results. Before starting battery showing 12.67 volts. Ignition on 12.34 volts. Cold cranking 10.67 volts. Switch engine off battery returns to about 12.6 volts.
Starter motor turns engine at 200 rpm.

Managed to uncover part of the fuel line between the fuel filter and the high pressure pump and there is air being pulled through, just have to find out from where. I was wrong about the fuel filter it's not Bosch, it actually is an OEM filter from Purflex. It's the Clio's I use Bosch filters. I'd be rubbish trying to run a garage, can't distinguish between two cars.:rolleyes:

On the upside, car does start a lot quicker, just not as quick as it should.
Plodding on.:)
 

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Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
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Managed to uncover part of the fuel line between the fuel filter and the high pressure pump and there is air being pulled through, just have to find out from where.
Yup

If you are getting no joy on the pipes/connections, try a leak off test on injectors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I haven't managed to do a leak off test yet as I do not have a kit.
I stand to be corrected here but if I had one or more injectors with leak back would that not cause other issues like rough idle and poor acceleration. Reason I ask is once started engine idles perfectly and the car has very good acceleration.
 

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Grand Scenic 1.6 2007
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I haven't managed to do a leak off test yet as I do not have a kit.
I stand to be corrected here but if I had one or more injectors with leak back would that not cause other issues like rough idle and poor acceleration. Reason I ask is once started engine idles perfectly and the car has very good acceleration.
Once battery and starter are eliminated, leaky injector is my next suspect for poor cold start. It only takes one for the rail to be low in pressure. Generally it will only affect the first start of the day and you may not notice anything else out of the ordinary. Typical limit is about 40cc per min at idle and ideally no more than about 30% ish between best and worst. A bad one is usually immediately obvious.
Four PET drinks bottles and some aquarium tube. Keep all the tubes the same length.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Brendan.
That's a big help. I'll have to look at that then. I don't think I can use a DIY kit as it looks like the return tubes from the injectors have some sort of unusual connector. I'll check the manual to be sure. If I have to buy a kit I think they are between £20 and £30. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. (y)
 

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Grand Scenic 1.6 2007
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Thanks Brendan.
That's a big help. I'll have to look at that then. I don't think I can use a DIY kit as it looks like the return tubes from the injectors have some sort of unusual connector. I'll check the manual to be sure. If I have to buy a kit I think they are between £20 and £30. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. (y)
Steady on! You'll be giving people heart attacks spending that kind of money :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Apparently I can't do a leak off test on this engine. I have just been informed that the return line from the injectors still have upwards of 10 bar pressure. That could explain the unusual connectors which I haven't worked out how to remove.
IMG_20210323_151301.jpg IMG_20210323_151301.jpg IMG_20210323_151322.jpg

The car starts and run's so I think I'll just leave it alone for now. To be fair I can't see how the injectors could be at fault as the car has only done 65,000 mile in eleven and a half years.

Have saved on the price of a leak test kit though Brendan. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Still messing about with this issue.
When the car has been stood for several hours it still has a long crank before it will start.
Just to recap there are no fault codes logged even with the Landrover Symptoms Driven Diagnostic software that the dealers use.
The battery is OK and has been load tested. A new starter motor was fitted due to age ( old one stripped down and perfect). Throttle body removed cleaned and tested. Inlet manifold removed to have swirl flaps removed also cleaned. New fuel filter, MAF and MAP sensors (OEM). Full air path checked with SDD diagnostics and passed. Glow plugs checked when manifold was out but are not called upon by the ecu until temperature drops to 0 deg.
When cranking fuel pressure peaks within a couple of seconds (no pressure when engine is switched off). Thought the small air bubbles in the fuel line could be an issue but I had this in some of our Clio's with no issues and I have checked with other Freelander 2 owners and some of them also have the bubbles without issue. The car has only 64k on the clock so doubt it is injectors but can't do a leak off test as injector returns are still at 10 bar.
Looking for some fresh thoughts.
IMG_20210118_152431.jpg
 

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Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
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You may find anther low pressure pump I think it's behind the front passenger wheel arch liner,
it could have stuck with standing and may start if you give it a tap, if it as a Bosch CP 1 pump
is the outside end flat if so it's likely it does have the extra pump, even my little Panda that
has the same HP pump as a lecy one as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks for the reply Ralph but that's the Freelander 1 with the BMW engine. This was the facelift model. The original Freelander had a 2.0 Rover engine. The Freelander 2 definitely only has one fuel pump and is driven directly from the camshaft.
I'm wondering if it could be the fuel pressure regulator on the side of the fuel rail.
Another possibility could be the injectors not getting a signal to fire straight away. These are just stab in the dark suggestions.
Think I'll get a noid light to test injector signal.🤔
 
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