Independent Renault Forums banner

1 - 20 of 51 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The car is a 2004 Renault Kangoo fitted with a 16v 1.6L engine and automatic transmission. In it's 15 years the car has travelled about 35K miles and in the last year only 600 miles.

When attempting to change the engine oil recently, I found that no oil would drain from the sump. This a job I have performed in the past without difficulty. Perplexed, I poured about 2 litres of oil into the engine with the expectation the oil would emerge from the sump. Sadly, nothing happened. With difficulty, I checked the oil level with the dipstick which resulted in a significant amount of oil flowing out of the engine from the dipstick hole and on to the floor.

Clearly, there is an internal blockage. I checked the sump drain hole for a blockage but could not detect anything. In an oil change carried out a year earlier, no problems were found.

The engine runs smoothly and there's nothing to indicate a fault. The engine sounds normal and the car can be driven with no apparent problems.

My suspicion is that small fragments from the timing belt have come off and are blocking the oil channels. The timing belt is original. Another possiblity might be sludge but this seems less likely. Given the age of the vehicle and it's value, I'm not certain an economic repair is possible.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most appreciated.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,427 Posts
Sadly, nothing happened. With difficulty, I checked the oil level with the dipstick which resulted in a significant amount of oil flowing out of the engine from the dipstick hole and on to the floor.
"difficulty" ........................................why? - By pulling the dipstick and looking at the scale on it?

If so then you have not checked the level but simply pulled the plug on a "STILL" overfilled engine to allow "SOME" of the overfill out ................

Stop driving it immediately if there is still oil oozing from the dipstick hole or if you suspect or know for a fact not all the excess oil has been removed .................. you will create major oil leaks allover, and if you drive it like that the oil is currently getting airrated by the crankshaft beating the oil surface and introducing air bubbles - the net result is bubbles/air in the oil with potential/guaranteed damage wherever proper pressurized lubrication and control is used in the engine.

Remove the sump drain plug and using a screwdriver poke around in the hole from the bottom until you shift the blockage away from the drain hole in the sump to allow oil to come out ................

If somehow you still cannot get the oil to flow, you will have to buy an oil extractor pump (auto shops) and remove the excess/oil oil from the sump through the dipstick hole (quite a common practice on many current modern engines designed with no sump plugs) - again! - DO NOT DRIVE THE VEHICLE LIKE THIS OR YOU WILL/MAY CAUSE SERIOUS ENGINE DAMAGE - REMOVE THE OIL FIRST BEFORE YOU DRIVE AGAIN.

I just cannot see how your engine can have sludge/gunk buildup in the sump to the extent that its able to block the drain hole completely/permanently if its seen regular oil services (based on either distance or time) .................. I suspect we dont have all the facts on the maintenance history of the engine
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
21,596 Posts
You say the timing belt is original. If thats the case then this is well overdue a change, it should be changed every 5 years/72k miles, whichever comes first.

As it is you are at risk of the belt snapping and causing major internal damage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,427 Posts
You say the timing belt is original. If thats the case then this is well overdue a change, it should be changed every 5 years/72k miles, whichever comes first.

As it is you are at risk of the belt snapping and causing major internal damage.
So true ...................

also
My suspicion is that small fragments from the timing belt have come off and are blocking the oil channels.
How exactly do you see the timing belt fragments (if indeed its busy disintegrating) getting into the oil with a timing belt external to the engine?
 

·
Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
Joined
·
9,244 Posts
Perplexed, I poured about 2 litres of oil into the engine with the expectation the oil would emerge from the sump.
Why on earth would you add fresh oil to contaminated old oil, and such a big quantity, even if it was just to prove a point?

I checked the sump drain hole for a blockage but could not detect anything.
Are you sure you have removed the correct plug? Could you post up a photo?

In an oil change carried out a year earlier, no problems were found.
Who did this? I'm wondering if any new oil was actually put in the engine after draining !!

The engine runs smoothly and there's nothing to indicate a fault. The engine sounds normal and the car can be driven with no apparent problems.
The engine won't run smoothly for long if you continue to run it with a very overfilled sump. Don't start it up until you have resolved the issue.

My suspicion is that small fragments from the timing belt have come off and are blocking the oil channels.
I cannot envisage this especially if the belt has not broken.

Another possiblity might be sludge but this seems less likely.
Very unlikely on such a low mileage engine and if not suffered from severe condensation.
.
 

·
Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
Joined
·
22,603 Posts

Other versions and manual solutions available.

But as said, get the level down to under max before running the beasty again.

Worst case is sump will need to come off to find out what is blocking the drain hole
 

·
Super fantastic Mod Technical Supremo Nice Guy
Joined
·
38,188 Posts
Just asking..
YOU are deffo on the sump to the engine, and not gearbox. (Yes have seen this done with an Apprentice . was even a tw*t and did not say nothing.... oh those were the days)
As you put auto box fitted
Timing belt, CANNOT get into the engine, on this model.
 

·
Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
Joined
·
9,244 Posts
Just asking..
YOU are deffo on the sump to the engine, and not gearbox. (Yes have seen this done with an Apprentice . was even a tw*t and did not say nothing.... oh those were the days)
I've nearly made that mistake myself .... new (to me) van, had limited access underneath as I didn't bother raising it up and both plugs look very similar and in same general area. Fortunately I always look twice when I'm unfamiliar with something.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,427 Posts
OU are deffo on the sump to the engine, and not gearbox. (Yes have seen this done with an Apprentice . was even a tw*t and did not say nothing.... oh those were the days)
As you put auto box fitted
................. and if it is a simple case of the mis-identification of the sump plugs, then you have a way more serious problem with an auto box and not enough ATF in it if nothing is coming out at all when the engine is stationary o_O :eek:
 

·
Super fantastic Mod Technical Supremo Nice Guy
Joined
·
38,188 Posts
Does gearbox oil come out of an auto, if he has undone the inner plug when not running ?
Thought the outer was for draining, and inner for level
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,427 Posts
Level in box drops as pump starts circulating ATF in box - so yes - if engine off, then level a good liter+ higher than actual normal operating level as measured by inner plug's design ..................... so if he has removed the auto's sump plug (outer) I would have expected about a liter of ATF to have poured out of the thing with the engine stationary through the inner "level checking tube"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for all replies

The car hasn't been driven since the overfill was detected.

The car is garaged in Australia and has air conditioning fitted as standard. As a result the space between the radiator and the engine is very crowded. The compressor, condenser, drier and associated hoses all take space and make reaching the dipstick harder than would otherwise be the case.

There's plenty of oil in the engine, but none of it is in the sump. I think clearing the oil channel blockage would be a big job and likely cost more than the car is worth.

As matters stand, I'm thinking that selling the car for parts might be my best option.
 

·
Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
Joined
·
9,244 Posts
Have you poked anything into the sump plug hole eg screwdriver ? Are you 100% you have removed the correct plug? Can you post up a photo please? It's silly to sell the car if you have made an innocent mistake which we can hopefully help you with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for your reply. Whilst I'm no mechanic, I have done the oil change in past without difficulty. So yes, I have the correct plug. As well, I've poked a screwdriver up to a depth of about 4cm. wiggled it around and didn't encounter any apparent obstruction. If the screwdriver should have gone in further, then perhaps there is an obstruction. For what it's worth, when I first unscrewed the sump plug, around 50ml of black watery oil emerged.

It was this unexpected event that prompted me to see what happened when oil was added. As it turned out, nothing came out of the sump. Because the oil level reading on the instrument panel was normal and there had been no indication of low oil pressure, I check the level with the dipstick which resulted in a spill. It's weird I know but this is why I suspect a "high" blockage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,427 Posts
Thanks for your reply. Whilst I'm no mechanic, I have done the oil change in past without difficulty. So yes, I have the correct plug. As well, I've poked a screwdriver up to a depth of about 4cm. wiggled it around and didn't encounter any apparent obstruction. If the screwdriver should have gone in further, then perhaps there is an obstruction. For what it's worth, when I first unscrewed the sump plug, around 50ml of black watery oil emerged.

It was this unexpected event that prompted me to see what happened when oil was added. As it turned out, nothing came out of the sump. Because the oil level reading on the instrument panel was normal and there had been no indication of low oil pressure, I check the level with the dipstick which resulted in a spill. It's weird I know but this is why I suspect a "high" blockage.
There's plenty of oil in the engine, but none of it is in the sump.
The engine runs smoothly and there's nothing to indicate a fault. The engine sounds normal and the car can be driven with no apparent problems.

Forgive me for being direct/blunt but there is absolutely no logic to those statements.

1. If you poured oil into the normal oil filler on the K4M engine, then most of the oil is in the sump - guaranteed by the design of the drain-down spaces cast into the head ................ and also by the inadequate space found under the tappet cover to accommodate/store the extra 2L of oil you have added
2. If the oil level indicator on the dash is showing full and you have no oil pressure warning, then the oil is in the sump - guaranteed by the design of the level indicator and the location of the oil pick-up attached to the oil pump.
3. If as you say the oil started pouring out the dipstick hole when you removed the dipstick, then quite obvious the oil is in the sump - guaranteed because the dipstick hole has a tube cast in the block ending in the sump (around the level of the oil pump pick-up) and not up top on the engine where you suspect the "blockages"
4. If the engine is smooth and doesn't sound like its going to explode even now when you start it with too much oil in it, then the oil is in the sump where it belongs - guaranteed

I cannot believe the conclusion and motivation for scrapping the vehicle with only 35K miles on it based on what was said here.

IMO we do not have all the facts related to this experience and we cannot possibly offer any sensible advice/help .

Before you scrap the thing at least take a flexible air compressor (about 3 Bar should be enough) hose and stick it into the hole where you removed the sump plug ................... have somebody open the feed line to the hose while you listen for all the injected air escaping from the top of the engine through the oil filler neck after you removed the oil filler cap, the dipstick hole after you removed the dipstick and though the intake manifold towards the throttle body/air filter ..............................
 

·
Super fantastic Mod Technical Supremo Nice Guy
Joined
·
38,188 Posts
Something not sitting right in my mind here..
Been working in this trade for over 40 years, not once have I seen this on any engine.

Ignore what the dash is saying, Because this is just an indicator for a level sensor inside the sump.
SHOULD never be trusted on any engine.

179518

am assuming this is your sump looking from below, and if removed you would see this

179519





As you can see, no where for the oil to collect and not come out .
 

·
Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
Joined
·
9,244 Posts
So yes, I have the correct plug. As well, I've poked a screwdriver up to a depth of about 4cm. wiggled it around and didn't encounter any apparent obstruction.
For what it's worth, when I first unscrewed the sump plug, around 50ml of black watery oil emerged.
So if its been 600 miles between oil changes the car is being driven an average of 11 miles per week.
Has anyone else maintained the car besides yourself? Could someone have mistakenly added top-up coolant through the oil filler?
Have you removed the oil filter and poured out the contents? Any comparison? Blocked filter perhaps stopping oil circulating?
 

·
Super Moderator Technical Supremo Platinum Member
Joined
·
22,603 Posts
Could someone have mistakenly added top-up coolant through the oil filler?
Must admit something like that has been going through my mind.
I can think of a case, going back over 40 years where oil did silly things.
Was fuel oil for oil fired furnaces in the foundry I worked at.
Main tank was filled, gawd knows how many gallons but a complete road tanker load.
Furnaces stopped and on checking, oil had gelled.
All through pipes, the main tank, the whole shooting match was full of tar like gel instead of relatively thin oil.
The right grade of oil had been put in but from a different supplier.
Some sort of chemical reaction had occurred.
No one was sure what but the strip out and clean up job was epic.

Given what Athios is telling us, I can't help but feel that the sump needs to come off ??
But would get someone, mobile mechanic? in for a second opinion.
There is something weird that isn't making sense to me.
 

·
Technical Supremo, Platinum Member
Joined
·
9,244 Posts
If only 600 miles since the last oil change then the oil in the engine should still be a golden colour.
I think luck could be on his side if the engine is running without rattles or rumbles or smoking anywhere.
Although a nuisance to remove the sump as a last resort it shouldn't be difficult or costly at all, even if paying for a mechanic to complete the task.
 
1 - 20 of 51 Posts
Top