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Discussion Starter #1
I've posted another thread elsewhere but have been low on useful responses, so apologies for doing it a second time here.

I'm getting a P0130 code on my 182 - when I clear it, it returns almost immediately. The yellow check engine dash light returns also, but after a short drive. I've replaced both O2 sensors. The pre-cat sensor is switching as expected [from around 0 to 750mV viewing live data on the Solus] and the post cat is sitting somewhere around 600mV-750mV [again from live data]... it drifts up and down a bit but doesn't go to zero or anything like that.

A few things are concerning me :

o When the car is cold, there's a terrible flat spot on acceleration... almost to the point of stalling. This seems to go away when it's warm.

o The tickover is rough and feels like it's 'hunting'... even when warm.

o When I was looking at live data the other evening, I noticed that the voltage across the pre-cat sensor was 2.5V when the engine was at ignition position 1 [i.e. switched on but engine not running].

I'd be really grateful for any help/pointers. Thanks in advance.
 

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You have a scanner so lets start there ...............

Engine cold - set up logging of the pre-cat O2 - switch on ignition - start logging - start engine WITHOUT touching the throttle and just let it idle .............

Continue to log for about a minute and post the resulting graph

What is your current LTFT at idle and then while sitting at 2000rpm vehicle stationary?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you so much for getting back to me, really appreciate it.

I don't actually have a scanner. A friend of mine has a Snap-On Solus, so we've been using that when he came around.

I'm not sure if I can set up logging on the Solus and whether the data, graphs etc... can be downloaded onto a USB stick or something, but I'll find out.

I do remember seeing the long and short fuel trim percentages but didn't record them, so I'd be guessing if I said something now.

Sorry my responses here aren't massively helpful. Could you possibly give me a list of the parameters that need to be logged, time intervals etc... i.e. the full nine yards of what needs to be recorded. My friend doesn't get over very often... but he's hopefully going to be here this Friday so I need to make maximum use of the time he and the Solus are with me.

Again, huge thanks for getting back to me.
 

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Yeah its not as easy as log one batch of things and have the ultimate answer.

P0130 relates to the upstream O2 values being wonky - either as a result of gaga mixtures or poor heater supply on the actual O2 ................ that's why I suggested start there.

Also - not ALL parameters governing proper pre-cat O2 readings are instrumented - eg - fuel pressure.

If I were in your shoes I would get myself a good Renault speaking scanner with good logging abilities to tackle issues like this ......... if your vehicle is EOBD spec'd then for the O2 monitoring a simple ELM327 dongle in combination with Torque Pro is going to be hard to beat.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks so much for getting back to me and for this.

Ya I totally understand where you're coming from... all these things require an iterative approach - check, eliminate, move to the next thing and check.

The car is an RS 182 so it has an OBD port behind the cigarette lighter. Given that it's UK-supplied, I imagine that will be European OBD [EOBD] ?

Torque-Pro / ELM327 is an Android based application, right [see link below] ? Is there an equivalent iPhone or Windows based combo you'd recommend ? I don't have a single Android device in the house (!)

Thanks again for everything here.

Torque Pro ELM 327 Android OBD Bluetooth Fault Scanner / Diagnostic Code Reader: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike
 

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The OBD port's presence doesn't guarantee EOBD compliance ...............my Scenic II (and other similar equiped models) has one of those and I cannot speak to it with a common scanner even though its listed as being EOBD - I have to use either Clip, Autel MD802 Pro or AP200 or then something that speaks Renault specifically .......luckily I have all those - I have a locked down system on the vehicle

I dont do IOS again ............. everything Android here - thus no personal experience but Dash Commander apparently is the Torque Pro alternative (but there are others)

Of all the scanners I have Torque Pro's logging and communication abilities are hard to beat - it can be set up to start logging selected pids soon as you switch on ignition and automatically send the result to your email when ignition is switched off again - whatever you get make sure you get a powerful logging feature

Before you start spending even these small amounts of money on a cheap EOBD only scanner I would suggest ask your buddy to see if he can get/read emission related pids (stuff like STFT, LTFT, coolant temp,O2 voltage etc) using his Solus - if he can then it will be a good starting point ............... the fact you said you saw values for LTFT and STFT is already a good sign that the vehicle is in fact EOBD compliant

Realize that you may require a proper Renault speaking scanner when the simple things dont point you in the right direction......... its also possible the SOLUS is actually unable to properly speak Renault and thus cannot retrieve the associated code with that dash light......
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you so much for everything here... real quick reply for now as I'm just about to leave for work. I had been considering buying the RS Tuner application [and dongle] from Fastchip [fastchip.nl]. It's a combined reprogramming and diagnostics tool supposedly for Renault RS cars. In terms of a suite that 'speaks Renault specifically', do you think this is a good option ?

Will reply back properly later.
 

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No idea tbh ............. no idea if it can actually do everything that the official Renault Clip tool can do - not into tuning and remapping.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'm not sure either... I've no desire to remap... I just want the car standard and to run properly. I'd seen graphs [e.g. O2 Sensor voltage] posted on forums etc... that were produced by RS Tuner and the product seems to be developed around the Renault range. I'd be buying it purely for it's diagnostic capabilities. It's very expensive however. I've just read a little on Dash Command and that set-up [inc. hardware] seems to be quite expensive too... in the ball park of RS Tuner.

I was chatting to my friend with the Solus a moment ago and we're going to do some basic integrity checks on the wiring back to the ECU on Friday because I really feel it shouldn't be showing a value above 1v at any stage [it's 2.5v at ignition position 1], we'll swap the sensors around to eliminate any possible cause there... then go from there.
 

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If you are not into remapping etc then RS Tuner the wrong tool imo - especially at the price.

Dash Commander will only get you basic OBD parameters just like Torque Pro and at roughly the same price - both can use a ELM327 chip based dongle - one wifi and one BT

Before you start ripping into the harness .................

ask yourself this:

Is the O2 sensor's heater energized during that period? ................ and can you physically confirm that fact n the actual sensor's heater element's wires on the exhaust itself.

When you say the O2 voltages swing between 0 and 750mV while engine is running I would not suspect much wrong with the O2's wring itself .............
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for this.

OK... I do need to carry out more research into the diagnostics suites.


> Is the O2 sensor's heater energized during that period?
That I'm not sure of. I guess I could put a probe across the pins on the cable from the harness ?

> and can you physically confirm that fact n the actual sensor's heater element's wires on the exhaust itself.
Not sure what you mean here ? The sensor is a screw in device heat is conducted through the threads ? Sorry, I may have misunderstood what you were saying here ?

> When you say the O2 voltages swing between 0 and 750mV while engine is running I would not suspect much wrong with the O2's wring itself
You're possibly correct... I'm just perplexed as to why I'm seeing 2.5v at ignition position 1 though. I didn't think this device should ever go above 1v ?


Again, I deeply appreciate all your time and help here. The whole thing is a learning exercise for me... but I'm very keen to figure out what's going on here.
 

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Thanks for this.

OK... I do need to carry out more research into the diagnostics suites.




That I'm not sure of. I guess I could put a probe across the pins on the cable from the harness ?



Not sure what you mean here ? The sensor is a screw in device heat is conducted through the threads ? Sorry, I may have misunderstood what you were saying here ?



You're possibly correct... I'm just perplexed as to why I'm seeing 2.5v at ignition position 1 though. I didn't think this device should ever go above 1v ?


Again, I deeply appreciate all your time and help here. The whole thing is a learning exercise for me... but I'm very keen to figure out what's going on here.
Sorry - busy here today and may not make sense first time round ...............

Basically - when the engine is running go put a voltmeter's probes onto the 2 heater wires of the O2 sensor as close as you can to the O2 sensor itself on the exhaust (and not just a plug higher up and closer to the ECU) and see if the heater is actually powered ................ forget strange O2 readings when the engine is not running - as long as you get a proper O2 voltage swing when engine running .................... that's why I asked the info in my first post - that graph will tell you 1. that the heater is actually getting power 2. the ECU enters closed loop about 30 seconds after engine start
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sorry - busy here today and may not make sense first time round ...............
No problem at all.

Basically - when the engine is running go put a voltmeter's probes onto the 2 heater wires of the O2 sensor as close as you can to the O2 sensor itself on the exhaust (and not just a plug higher up and closer to the ECU) and see if the heater is actually powered ................ forget strange O2 readings when the engine is not running - as long as you get a proper O2 voltage swing when engine running .................... that's why I asked the info in my first post - that graph will tell you 1. that the heater is actually getting power 2. the ECU enters closed loop about 30 seconds after engine start
All clear. Will go and do this on Friday when my friend is over with the Solus and report back.

Thank you so much for this.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
the ECU enters closed loop about 30 seconds after engine start
Sorry again... do you mean the voltage oscillation should begin 30 seconds or so after the engine starts ? i.e. I should see this on the O2 Sensor Bank 1 voltage readings on the Solus ?

As an aside, doesn't the ECU supply its own default fuelling parameters to the injectors etc... until the coolant temperature reaches a certain level. Up until that point do the readings above remain static ? At the transition point the ECU ostensibly relinquishes control to the values produced by the O2 sensor ? If I remember correctly, this took quite some time the other night. The engine was very slow to reach operating temperature of 91C. It was a moderately cold evening though - about +7C.
 

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Sorry again... do you mean the voltage oscillation should begin 30 seconds or so after the engine starts ? i.e. I should see this on the O2 Sensor Bank 1 voltage readings on the Solus ?
If as we suspect the vehicle is indeed EOBD compliant and reporting on emission pids then absolutely yes - you should see a flat line about .5V for O2 for around 20 seconds while the O2 heats up - once operating temp is reached the O2 will start producing sensible readings (initially slowly till at SENSOR operating temp) to be used for closed loop control of the fuel trims

As an aside, doesn't the ECU supply its own default fuelling parameters to the injectors etc... until the coolant temperature reaches a certain level. Up until that point do the readings above remain static ? At the transition point the ECU ostensibly relinquishes control to the values produced by the O2 sensor ? If I remember correctly, this took quite some time the other night. The engine was very slow to reach operating temperature of 91C. It was a moderately cold evening though - about +7C.
No - the ECU is 100% dependent on engineering knowledge and the fuel maps designed for the engine in unmodified condition - initially when the ECU is reset/new the ECU will use fuel maps that came from the factory - once you start using the engine and the ECU is getting feedback from the O2, the ECU will start learning about the specific engine's idiosyncrasies and it will start using the STFT values to shift the fuel map around by adapting the LTFT ....................

IOW - the last time you ran the engine, a value for LTFT (either 0 if just reset or from the factory or a non-0 value based on engine operating history) will have been established and learned/saved in the ECU - next time you start the engine and the O2 is still not at operating temp or producing sensible info, the location of the fuel map governed by that LTFT will be used until such a time as the STFT is able to affect changes (possibly and only if STFT not close to zero) to the LTFT

Just so its said - IF ALL IS NORMAL the O2 and ECU MUST enter closed loop quickly and typically within 30 seconds after engine start irrespective of ambient and engine temperature on any and all modern engines .............. ALSO - there is more than one LTFT value - those values are all a function of the throttle position (small range or band of power demanded)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you so much for this... it's an excellent outline of how this works and clears up a lot of misconceptions I had. So when we're testing this on Friday, I should be seeing the O2 Sensor 1, Bank 1 voltage oscillating within the first minute or so. All clear.

In the meantime, I'm going to look at getting an Android device [tablet or something] off eBay and the TorquePro set up so that I could do more detailed logging and graphing.

I am so grateful for all your time and help here, I really appreciate it.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
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Right, time to report back. We did a lot of testing and fiddling yesterday - Friday had to be postponed. There's a lot here.

Before I explain what we did... just a bit of background. The Clio has two O2 sensors and both are the same type. Before I bought the car, it had thrown a P0130 code. The owner had a garage fit a brand new Bosch OEM sensor in the pre-cat location with a view to clearing this code. It didn't work and they felt that the issue may be related to the wiring/loom. Since then, I had done my tests and felt that the problem may be related to the post-cat sensor so I replaced that with a genuine Renault one [which may well be made by Bosch !]. The sensor I removed appeared to be a genuine Renault sensor so could well have been there from when the car was new.

Here's a brief outline of what happened yesterday.

o First we decided to fully test the sensors to verify the heater was working on them. We removed the Bosch sensor, connected back to it's plug and started the car. The heater glowed after a few seconds. We did the same to the new Renault one, it also glowed.

o Before re-installing the sensors, we took the voltage drop across each of the pins... and noticed that on all three there appeared to be current leakage between the signal pins and the heater pins ??? But only when the sensor was warm. I'm very confused about this.

o Having been unable to clear the P0130 fault code the last day, we decided to place the new Renault sensor pre-cat and the old Renault sensor post-cat. The pre-cat sensor began oscillating fairly soon after the engine started. We then got the engine to operating temperature and beyond [i.e. the temperature began to come down a little as I guess the fan came on]. We had the engine running for some time. The post-cat sensor voltage remained at 420mV throughout and I'm guessing this is the default ECU value... that part of the system never went to closed loop. You can see part of the graph in image 3460.

o We then removed the old Renault sensor from the post-cat location and fitted the 'new' Bosch sensor that had been pre-cat. The voltage went 2550mV and never moved. See part of the graph in image 3466.

o The P0130 error code did not reappear throughout this graphing test.

o I took the car for a short drive today and the check-engine light has remained off. It was a short drive though... and in the past the light has remained off for a while and reappeared later.

One additional piece of information... I remember from earlier in the week that when the new Renault sensor was fitted post cat, it was producing a signal as the post-cat voltage was moving on the Solus, albeit we didn't have graphing on at that point.


So deductions/conclusions/questions.

- It would appear the 'brand new' Bosch sensor was not producing the expect signal when placed pre-cat [remember the 2550mV I mentioned earlier in the thread]. It's definitely not producing the right signal when placed post-cat.

- The old Renault sensor does not appear to be generating a signal... I'm guessing the 420mV is the ECU default.

- The new Renault sensor appears to be working fine when placed pre-cat.

- The voltage drop between the signal/data and heater [when warm but not connected to the car loom] is perplexing.

- I can accept that the old Renault sensor that had been fitted post-cat is not working - although it had never generated an error code. The new Bosch sensor that had been fitted pre-cat appears to be faulty.


Next steps.

- I'm going to buy another new sensor for the post-cat location. I hope this will generate the expected signal post cat.

- The car is still rough on tickover. I wasn't able to test for flat-spot on acceleration as there was too much traffic on the road today. Maybe it will be better if there was a working sensor post-cat ?
 

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Congratulations on the progress .................... and also I think finding a dud Bosch O2 - I have never personally experienced the leakage you describe between the heaters and the signal wires

Closed loop mixture control doesn't use the post cat O2 - closed loop can be seen to have commenced soon as the pre-cat O2 starts oscillating.

Post cat O2 is there to check on cat performance and also measure the deterioration of the cat ................ but only once the engine has gone through quite a a few very specific condition for extended periods and that after the exhaust has reached and maintained a specific temperature - the typical post cat O2 voltage when not at temperature or correct conditions will remain constant at around 450mV - the typical voltage swings post cat will not be as frequent or as extensive as the pre-cat O2.

Personally I would hold off on replaceing the post cat O2 already - take a long drive while monitoring the post cat O2 and see if it comes alive at some stage during the trip - this far its reacting as expected while not actually driving imo

As a matter of interest only:

Can you post the exact Bosch/Renault model numbers found on the faulty/original/new sensors - I have in the past found the Bosch guys to have suggested the incorrect heater voltage spec'd sensors as replacements (but on a MB A160 and there the new O2 triggered a code because luckily the ECU monitored heater current and picked up that fact)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have never personally experienced the leakage you describe between the heaters and the signal wires
This is really perplexing but could be seen on all three sensors - including the new Renault one. When the sensors were cold, there was no leakage. Just to be clear, this is when the sensor is completely disconnected from the car.

Personally I would hold off on replaceing the post cat O2 already - take a long drive while monitoring the post cat O2 and see if it comes alive at some stage during the trip - this far its reacting as expected while not actually driving imo
I know what you're saying, but we did have the engine running for quite a long time - including [as you can see from the graph] periods at almost 3,000rpm. The other evening when the new Renault sensor was placed post-cat I remember seeing voltage changes. It's possible that the old Renault one is lazier and not coming alive early enough ? Clearly, the Bosch was sending a signal of 2.5v from the get-go, so that's not right. I'm going to try and drive the car throughout this week, so we'll see what happens. I don't have access to the Solus for the moment, so I need to get myself set up with something to be able to do the logging/graphic myself. Will need to see if I can get an Android tablet off eBay and then the Torque Pro set up.

As always, thank you so much for all your help.
 
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