[accn]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here and I need some desperate help from yous..

I am from sydney, Australia and I own a Renault Scenic 2004 (manual) model. Had no problems with the car until recently (probably over the past 3 months) and now I am starting to hate this car...This is what happened:

The problem started 3 months ago. When I try to start the car in the morning, it started to take unusually longer to get it started. The engine simply rolls over and I need to keep trying 2-3 times at first before the engine fires up. First I thought its not so bad thinking i can deal with it and hopefully it will work fine by itself..But it didnt work. THe problem got worse and it started to take a lot longer to start the car eventually. The weird thing is, once the car starts, it works fine the rest of the day unless until the car was sitting idle for over 12 hours or so, then the same prob again.

I had it checked with NRMA service and they recommended to take it to an auto-electrician. He said that the fuses are fine but for some reason there is no spark. He even said sometimes it can be a prob with the coded key. In the mean time the car battery went fully dead since I was trying to start the car for long time and it completely wont start..only roll over. This is when I had to tow the car to an auto electrician.

As the mechanic was checking the car, apparently the car started to work fine all of a sudden again! He was surprised himself and not sure what the problem was. He kept the car in his garage for 2 days to check if it starts again, and guess what...it was working fine and he didn't even do anything!!

After numerous attempts, he said that he thinks the crank sensor could be playing up so it needs to be changed. So i had to spend over $200 for a crank sensor. They are not cheap in aus! While he was fixing this, in the mean time the battery got fully drained. He said the battery needs to changed as well now since it wasnt recharging due to its age. So, I spent another $300 for the stupid battery. Now it has a new crank sensor and new battery and an expense of over $700 already altogether including labour, towing and everything! So I was hoping the problem is fixed.

I got the car back 3 weeks ago. The first couple of days I noticed that the problem was still there. This time however the car started in the second try itself though but it still did not start straight away. Slowly after a few days, the delay became longer. Last week, to start my car, i had to try 3-4 times with a duration of 5-6 seconds each time. It simply keeps turning over! only after a many tries it starts!!

The weird thing happened this week. From monday to wed, the car all of a sudden started to work fine. It started straight away when I tried. I was really surprised to see it working again but I had done nothing! I have no idea with the mechanical part of the car and was surprised to see it work on its own as if there was no problem. I was happy it did though! But my happiness was short lived. The problem started again today. Turn over....no starting...I am really getting sick of this.

My biggest worry is, I have no idea on whats wrong with the car. Even my mechanic has no idea...I cant keep changing the parts based on my mechanic's guesses since it could end up costing me big time if I keep changing parts based on his guess and if it still doesnt work!!!

I have been searching the internet for hours on this and I noticed that a lot of people are having the same problem. But it confuses me cuz different people are saying different things...one is saying it it tdc sensor, the other is saying it is fues injection relay, one says it is battery etc..etc...Which of these are right?? If this problem is so common, what is the solution?

Please help....I would really appreciate it...

Cheers..

 

[hoochy]

hi you dont say if its petrol or derv? could it be a bad connecting plug on the crank sensor or even a faulty sensor even if it was new or if its derv could be injector seals could be a faulty/sticking relay my advice would be to by a renault clip of ebay and pull the codes on the car as then it should show you/point you where the fault lies

 

[madnoel10]

Hi Accn - welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you've had the run-around from your mechanic and auto-spark but if you could post up the exact engine type, capacity and mileage members may be in a better position to offer advice.

 

[hoochy]

Hi Accn any luck with the car? let us know :d

 

[accn]

Hi hoochy and madnoel10,

Thank you so much for your reply...I really appreciate you guys taking time off your day to help out others. It wont be forgotten...thanx heaps..

Sorry to get back a little late. I am in the process of moving house as well and the car trouble isint helping..its a nightmare..

Well...i have some more info on my car. It uses petrol (unleaded). The other details are:

Year: 2001 (oops...I thought it was 2004 before..i was wrong)
Make: Renault
Model: Scen01A
Engine Capacity: 1998.0
Engine Number: F4RC744C016282
Mileage: 125578 km.

I am hoping this gives you guys a little more idea on what could be going on...

could it be a bad connecting plug on the crank sensor or even a faulty sensor even if it was new or if its derv could be injector seals could be a faulty/sticking relay

Hoochy I was wondering the same when I was searching the internet on this...When my mechanic had the car before to find out the problem, he said he checked everything and he still couldnt figure out where the exact problem lies..he said that its like the car is sending signals from different points that the problem can be anything since he is unable to narrow down the cause..That was the time he suggested to go with changing the crank sensor first and see how it goes..Honestly I know nothing about the mechanical parts of the car and I dont know what to do now that the crank sensor and even the battery is changed and still no luck..

 

[hoochy]

hi see when you changed the crank sensor did it start ok and run ok for a few days? could it be a break in the wires on the crank sensor or the wires going to the plug its self?or pos a short in 1 of them and its killing the sensor over time? i would take it off and clean it and refit it there is a way to test the sensor im sure 1 of the lads on here has posted how to do this on a post in the forum some where think the guys name is pat, also it could be a faulty sticking relay and with the guy pulling it about its started working for so long, your car will have a imobliser is the light going out when it should, have a look see if you can read up on the way it should go out just to make sure its switching off the imobliser ok is there fuel getting to the engine?

 

[madnoel10]

There are a couple of video clips on Youtube showing how to test a TDC sensors. Do a search for crankshaft position sensor.

Her'es a link to get you started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ws8EVQ6NjE

 

[supermarketsweep]

hi sounds duff crank sensor i fitted six in one week to different cars and one turned out to be bad i fit them first stop as its 99 percent always that and are only £14 in britain , one car sticky fuel pump, should hear fuel pump run for a few seconds before turning key to start , immobilizer maybe .

 

[accn]

Thank you supermarketsweep, madnoel10 and hoochy,

As soon as the crank sensor was changed, the car was starting but I cant say it was 100% fine. Before this problem, the car starts in 2-4 seconds in the first try itself. During the problem, it took 3-8 tries and eventually it went dead. After the crank sensor was changed, it wasnt starting straight away, but it did start when I tried to start it for the second time. I first try for 3-5 seconds, no luck and then the second try it goes off. This happened for the next 2-3 days only after the crank sensor was changed. Slowly this delay became more and more as a matter of time. All of a sudden from nowhere, it was starting absolutely fine for 3 days about last week or so (in the first try itself! I was surprised!). But now, its back to where it was. It took me 7 tries this morning (with 5 seconds duration each time I tried) to get it started. Also another thing I noticed this morning was, when I was trying to start first, the clicking sound it makes normally when the car is trying to start sounded very weird. I cant explain the sound but I can certainly say that it sounded different from the way it was sounding before. Also the car is starting to become a bit shakky when I am trying to start..The whole car shakes as if it was some kinda vibrating bed when trying to start..

Anyhow, I had a look at the youtube video on how to check TDC sensor. I will check it out and also (hopefully if my pay is clear) I am thinking of taking the car to the mechanic again. Atleast this time, I have a list of things I can suggest him to check and thanks to you guys for that. You have helped a lot in educating me on this...I will certainly keep you all posted on how things go on from here...

 

[hoochy]

i was looking on ebay mate and a renault parts seller has stated this on his add how true it is i dont know

Renault have changed all tdc sensors and they now have a blue plug connector so any black one is likely to fail at some point


i still think it may be a faulty sensor or connector plug, do you know for sure a 100% that it was changed? or did you just pay him for it? to be honest i wouldnt go near the two of them agian if it was my car i would take it some where outher than them as they should have been able to narrow it down the auto spark shoud have done tests to confirm it wasnt a imobliser or relay problem and to make sure the crank sensor was ok then look for breaks/short in the loom then he would prob have said hes done all he could do and advise you to take it to a dealer with the proper diagnostic software to fault diagnose the ecu as this is where the fault may be,so to sum it up if you didnt buy the crank sensor your self i would buy 1 from the uk and get it sent by air mail and fit it first and fore most and then start from there agin

 

[supermarketsweep]

hi i might be wrong on this is your the card ignition type ecu problems or normal key ? renault have changed the colour of the sensor to blue and you have to buy a convertor cable to use it as the tags dont match the original plug , is the management light on , see if any one phoned me up and said there car start maybe 2,3,4,5, turn off the key i would put it down to crank sensor , its the same on freelanders , rovers , renaults,merc they dont put management light on but done start properly. vauxhall is always camshaft sensor and management light comes on . but its a tough one when you put a new one on, was it a renault main dealer part or after market ? i did fit a after market one (ebay) which made no differents , but i never supplied it and my mate was laughing at me because i was wrong . but no it was a duff sensor . and i have fitted secondhand ones which was duff before i fitted it , and got someone out of trouble for a day until i got a new one . cannot see why it cost so much for a new one were you are , only 2 bolts takes 10-30 mins to do . the only other thing is the chip in the key , but the red light would flash to say it was immobilized , has it got a spark when it does not start ?

 

[accn]

Hi supermarketsweep and hoochy,

i still think it may be a faulty sensor or connector plug, do you know for sure a 100% that it was changed? or did you just pay him for it?

hoochy, that's a good question..lol...I really hope he changes it cuz I did pay for it! The mechanic told me that he has changed the crank sensor and also billed me for that. So i guess I have to take his word..

the only other thing is the chip in the key , but the red light would flash to say it was immobilized , has it got a spark when it does not start ?

supermarketsweep, a couple of people have mentioned the same. When I had the car checked by NRMA first, the mechanic pointed out that there was no spark when we were trying to start the car and whats why it wasnt starting. Apparently the fuses seems to be fine. He did say that sometimes this could cause due to a faulty chip in the key. Unfortunately I have only key and i did bother making another key yet since its so expensive to get these kinds of keys remade! but like you said wouldnt the red light flash to say it was immobilized? If it doesnt flash, is it safe to assume that the key might not be at fault?

was it a renault main dealer part or after market ?

supermarketsweep, I spoke to the mechanic today to find this out. he said he buys genuine products only and the crank sensor is specially manufactured for Renault cars though its not from the main renault dealer. he also said that apparently this dealer sold 6 of them last month for renaults since it appears it is a common problem. He reckons it is highly unlikely that the crank sensor is at fault again. So he thinks there is another underlying problem causing this and he might need to have the car in his garage for 3 day to even a week to give me an answer. At the back of mind, I am really really worried - how much more is this gonna cost me!

Anyways, I was going to take the car to the mechanic today, but not anymore. I am going to hold on to it probably for another 2 more weeks and put up with this for now until I can save up a bit more to afford this expense..

In the mean time, I am thinking to try testing the Crankshaft Position Sensor. The video that madnoel10 provided was helpful. But first I have to go and buy myself an ohm meter.

Once again, thank you so much to all of you guys. I wish you were here in Sydney... :d

 

[madnoel10]

I would recommend the engine coolant temp sensor be checked out.
If faulty the ECU may always think the engine is always warm or vice versa - therefore leading to mis-fueling during start-up.

Do a google search for Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor - there's loads of info., out there on the web.

 

[hoochy]

hi it could be the cooling temp sensor but you commonly find if the temp sensor is knackered its usually after the car has been running and heated up it has problems starting.it will also run like a bag of spanners most times and it will have a fuel smell from it over fuelling .i have heard people saying that they have heated their crank sensor up with a hairdryer for a couple of minutes and the cars had started wether thats true or just a myth i dont know but i would go for the crank sensor agian and fit it your self this time atleast this way you know for sure its been done and not just taken of and had a clean up

 

[madnoel10]

hi it could be the cooling temp sensor but you commonly find if the temp sensor is knackered its usually after the car has been running and heated up it has problems starting.it will also run like a bag of spanners most times and it will have a fuel smell from it over fuelling .i have heard people saying that they have heated their crank sensor up with a hairdryer for a couple of minutes and the cars had started wether thats true or just a myth i dont know but i would go for the crank sensor agian and fit it your self this time atleast this way you know for sure its been done and not just taken of and had a clean up

A faulty coolant temp sensor can fail in either condition. One were its resistant it too high the other were it is too low and anywhere across the range in between. Even if the sensor itself is in good nick a poor electrcial connection to it can cause havoc with its output. Plus it is any easy cheap test to do.

A TDC sensor is likely to peform worse if heated up as most electrics just don't like getting hot.

One of the most common early signs of TDC faults is the engine fails to start when the engine is hot but OK when cold.

80% of TDC faults on Renults are down to dirt of metal pragments gathering on the sensor tip and the other is a poor electrcial connection - that's why Renault modified not only the sensor but also it's wiring loom.

 

[accn]

hi Guys,

I think you might be right here...I think it could be the faulty coolant temp sensor as well...The reason why I think so is because this problem only became worse in the winter (yeah...its winter here in aus now). Though its not freezing temp in sydney, it more like 5-8 degree C in the mornings when I try to start the car. Thats the time, the car takes a lot lot longer. I am not sure if it is a coincedence that the problem started during the winter. But, I have a feeling it has something to do with it...

Also in the mean time I called up the renault dealer to find out if I can get another spare key made just to make sure that it is not the key problem. I was so surprised with the cost!! It cost $400 for the key to be made from france and then another $160 to program it!!! Man, I dont have that kind of money just to blow it on a key and that too when I have already spent over $700 on this car for this stupid problem....So now I am thinking, if it is worth for me to get another key made now? Once the key is on, the immobalizer light in dashboard does not blink. So, it is safe to assume that the key might not be at fault? I dont think it is the key problem but today another mechanic told me to get a spare key first and see how it goes and thats why I started enquiring about the cost for it. Now I am confused again!!

Also would a faulty coolant temp sensor also cause no spark when trying to start?

Anyways, I have got a list of few checks that can be done to figure out the problem..(thanks to you guys)..so I will start to check them and will let you guys on how it goes from here....

 

[triop]

Might be worth looking at the battery voltage during a cold start since it runs Ok for the rest of the day.

 

[accn]

Hi Everyone...

Sorry I havent written back in awhile...Been busy after moving to a new house, setting up internet again etc..etc..

Anyways, just a quick update on this..Honestly I still havent fixed this issue with my car yet since I am still waiting to save up some cash. By the looks of it, it could be another month before I can afford anything..

In the mean time, I am still using the car..It takes on an average 10 mins to start in the mornings but now I actually got used to this. So I leave 15 mins early when I leave for work cuz of this. But I am happy atleast it starts in the end after many tries..I will be glad as long as it keeps starting eventually..Hopefully I can fix it when I can afford..

Cheers to you guys for all the support. You are all doing a great job!

Take care...

 

[shortbread biscuit]

Hi Everyone...

Sorry I havent written back in awhile...Been busy after moving to a new house, setting up internet again etc..etc..

Anyways, just a quick update on this..Honestly I still havent fixed this issue with my car yet since I am still waiting to save up some cash. By the looks of it, it could be another month before I can afford anything..

In the mean time, I am still using the car..It takes on an average 10 mins to start in the mornings but now I actually got used to this. So I leave 15 mins early when I leave for work cuz of this. But I am happy atleast it starts in the end after many tries..I will be glad as long as it keeps starting eventually..Hopefully I can fix it when I can afford..

Cheers to you guys for all the support. You are all doing a great job!

Take care...

I know how you feel, I have similar problems with my Megane at the moment. Always when the car is cold.

I have changed the battery, cleaned the TDC and I am changing the Temperature Sensor tomorrow... Fingers crossed.. will let you know!

 

[mickeybo]

Engine code would certainly help found on engine block down near sump lip