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ISLE OF Man coroner Michael Moyle has savaged the TT race organisation from top to bottom in his verdicts on the deaths of three people - rider Marc Ramsbotham and specators Dean Jacob and Gregory Kenzig - at the 26th Milestone during last year's Senior TT.

Moyle's attack targeted leading race officials, marshals and the Isle of Man government's Department of Transport. 'Members of the public may be astonished not only at the number of failings but the gravity of them,' he said. 'There have been considerable and wholesale failings in the system designed to ensure the safety of spectators was paramount.'

He accused many of the witnesses at the inquest of being defensive and failing to accept facts that were 'blindingly obvious'.

The coroner said he hoped they would play no significant role in the future of racing on the Island and read out a list of the people he was referring to. Chief marshal Roger Hurst and former clerk of the course Neil Hanson - a colleague of Moyle's in the Manx legal profession - were included on it.

Recording verdicts of death by misadventure, Moyle concluded by saying that if the prohibited area at the 26th Milestone had been properly marshalled and properly closed off, spectators would not have been there and their lives would have been spared.

TT organiser ACU Events Ltd and the TT Marshals Association have yet to react to Moyle's pointed remarks but insiders believe draconian restrictions on spectator access to many areas around the Mountain Course is now top of the agenda for this year's event.

SRC: visordown.com -- http://www.visordown.com/motorcyclenews/view/tt_deaths__damning_verdict/4040.html
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I'm really interested in people's opinions on this one. Although it's clearly a tragedy, can anybody genuinely say that they thought that the TT could ever be a really "safe" event, expecially on the mountain section?
 

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Dont think that the TT can ever be made truly safe and I think that is part of its attraction to some, i dont mean they want to see riders killed, but they like getting close to the action. There are ares that need to be improved crowd control is one, I stopped marshaling there in the 80's as i thought it was below standard to many inexperienced marshals that where out just to watch the racing and not fuly understanding what was required
 
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Motorsport is dangerous....It's printed on the ticket.

The bikes are bad on this type of track because it's so easy for them to become airborne and fly into spectators. As with most motorsports events, spectators don't help themselves. They insist on standing in the worst possible places, putting themselves in danger (I'm not saying that's the case with these 2, I don't know the facts here). Catch fences at an event like the IOM are impractical, as temporary structures are unlikely to do the job. More attention needs to put on spectator control. They have to be kept in the safe area’s. As for the riders, well they know the risks when they enter the event, but having some idiot with a flag in your view as you hit the apex of a corner can’t be a help. I have the greatest respect for the marshals, on the whole they do a great job, but as Prag mentioned there are those that are only really interested in a free ticket and a good view, they have no business at a professional event, or any other for that matter.
 

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I got involved in a discussion on the subject when it first happened and my views haven't changed.

The TT is dangerous,and as said before,that is part of the attraction.Before I'm accused of being a blood thirsty animal (again:rolleyes:),I don't wish to see anyone killed or injured,but it is part of motor racing and no matter what measures are taken it always will be.The spectators know this and the participants know this.Spectators don't help themselves in most cases,but that is up to them.No matter how good the marshalls are,on a circuit of that length it is nigh on impossible to police the whole track.

The only way to stop people dying at the TT is to ban it.....which is unfortunately what I expect to happen in the coming years.:(
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Yep - the only outcome will probably be to shut the event down which would be a disaster for the island
 

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I got involved in a discussion on the subject when it first happened and my views haven't changed.

The TT is dangerous,and as said before,that is part of the attraction.Before I'm accused of being a blood thirsty animal (again:rolleyes:),I don't wish to see anyone killed or injured,but it is part of motor racing and no matter what measures are taken it always will be.The spectators know this and the participants know this.Spectators don't help themselves in most cases,but that is up to them.No matter how good the marshalls are,on a circuit of that length it is nigh on impossible to police the whole track.

The only way to stop people dying at the TT is to ban it.....which is unfortunately what I expect to happen in the coming years.:(
Totally agree with you there Lag. You will not remove it same as you won't in other motorsports. Preventive measures need to be put into place for the crowd control though.

As for the last bit, look at Group B rallying. The sport become too dangerous for drivers and spectators alike. Cars flew off the track taking out quite a few. I'll dig out a video of it for those who never realised how bad it got. That was a sad end of an era, however. I really hope this doesn't happen to the TT. It is one of the most iconic race events on the calender, and not just for the UK.
 

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The thing with Group B was at that time there was no crowd control in coutries like Portugal,Spain etc,and the cars were so fast that a disaster was bound to happen.I read a story written by an ex-Lancia mechanic that said it was quite normal to find peoples fingers in the air intake on the S4's as people wanted to touch the cars as they passed at speed on a stage!.:eek:.I watched the video on Youtube of the Portugese rally in '86,and it really was quite disturbing.I hadn't seen it for quite some years but it was even more horrendous than I remember it.
 

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I really hope this doesn't happen to the TT. It is one of the most iconic race events on the calender, and not just for the UK.
As a Manxman, (not part of the UK), who grew up with the TT I have to try and help put things in perspective. How many spectators have been killed iwarching the races in recent times, out of the many hundreds of thousands that visit the IoM every year for the unique event that is the TT ?

My father was (for 20 years) a travelling marshall, who witnessed and cleared up many a terrible crash scene, saving many lives in the process. The deathtoll over the years affected him greatly, but he would not wish the event to be scrapped.

As several people have quite rightly noted, the TT is dangerous; the people that watch the races know this, and most of them return year after year. To ban the races would be disastrous and a victory for the PC brigade.

True, marshalling could be improved (at every motorsport event no doubt), but so to could the common sense of the spectators.

Lets hope that this tragic event does not spell the end of a wonderfully atmospheric and historic race meeting.
 
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
To ban the races would be disastrous and a victory for the PC brigade.

but so to could the common sense of the spectators.
And we can't have that:d

And there's the problem, apparently quite a large number of motorsports spectators leave it at home. I once saw a woman run out onto the track at Silverstone (whilst the F1 cars were running) to collect a bit of debris that had fallen of a car, she was narrowly missed by a car exiting bridge at full tilt. She seemed to think this was totally acceptable and waved her ever so small piece of memorabilia with pride:crazy:
 

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Road racing is one of last gladatorial sports where the riders know and accept the risks and not just anyone can turn up and race. I have been to the Isle of Man and it is seen as a great tourist event and brings a load of money to the local economy. Guess who spends the most - yeh you got it right its the spectators. So from a purely financial viewpoint would it not be prudent to introduce safety measures to protect the spectators - if no spectators turned up the event just wouldn't survive. I appreciate this is purely a finacial view but it may just be enough to save the day:)
We have road racing on a number of circuits over here in Northern Ireland and spectator safety is given priority without spoiling the sport for both those who wish to watch and participate. The last non-rider death was a marshall some 2 years ago.:)
If in the Isle of Man case there was negligence on behalf of the organisers then surely they should be responsible for its demise should it happen. See quote below from the coroner concerned.

"if the prohibited area at the 26th Milestone had been properly marshalled and properly closed off, spectators would not have been there and their lives would have been spared.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
OK, so I guess you sit firmly on the fence with this one then Noel:confused:
 

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OK, so I guess you sit firmly on the fence with this one then Noel:confused:
Far from sitting on the fence me thinks. In this instance the coroner clearly stated that there where those who failed and even went to the steps of naming them.
Even a rider who is prepared to accept the risks would not expect the organisers and marshalls to act in a negilgent manner. Whether it is a rider or spectator who is injured or killed and the blame can be attributed to someones else fault or negligence then it should be. Its not as if the IOM is a poor third world country who is struggling financially - it has plenty of experience, and the resources to stage what is its main sporting with relevant the safety procedures.
Personally I think road racing is an exciting event which brings great thrills to all involved but if spectators keep getting killed they will have shot themselves in the foot - so to speak. Plus all riders are concerned with their spectators safety and unless something is done they may well fail to participate also.:steam:
 

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Thats an interesting point.

The last thing that any racer wants is to be involved in an accident where a spectator in killed or injured,and if the event as a whole can't police the event properly then riders might refuse to race.

I still can't see that a circuit of this length can be policed 100%,but hopefully the spectators haven't lost their in vain and that a lesson is learnt.
 

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As the event is long most spectators tend to congregate in areas with facilites (toilets, bars, cafes, etc) - this is where they should concentrate their resources.
Believe you me the IOM is a very rich wee island. During the year the event was cancelled due to the foot and mouth scare the government compensated hotels and boarding houses for loss of revenue - can't see my local council doing that! The island has plenty of resources and it may seem those concerned lacked the will.:)
 
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Far from sitting on the fence me thinks. In this instance the coroner clearly stated that there where those who failed and even went to the steps of naming them.
Even a rider who is prepared to accept the risks would not expect the organisers and marshalls to act in a negilgent manner. Whether it is a rider or spectator who is injured or killed and the blame can be attributed to someones else fault or negligence then it should be. Its not as if the IOM is a poor third world country who is struggling financially - it has plenty of experience, and the resources to stage what is its main sporting with relevant the safety procedures.
Personally I think road racing is an exciting event which brings great thrills to all involved but if spectators keep getting killed they will have shot themselves in the foot - so to speak. Plus all riders are concerned with their spectators safety and unless something is done they may well fail to participate also.:steam:

I agree with you entirely on this post Noel.

Your first post seemed to contradict itself a bit saying why the spectators should be allowed to go where they please, and then say why they shouldn't, or that may have been just the way I read it
 

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Maybe everyone, including spectators, has a responsibility to look out for themselves as best they can at the TT and similar events.
The TT itself is fantastic. Its more than just the racing its a big happy fun festival.
Last year's accident where the spectators were killed was terrible.
I hope some lessons can be learned from it and the TT goes on to be even more exciting for as long as possible.
 
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