[victorludorum]

I think the solenoid probably does need replacing, but a good many posts on this well-known problem all say that changing the oil is the first step, as sometimes this fixes the problem. I've also read a fair few posts where people have paid to have the solenoids changed, only for the problem to come back within the year. Having spoken to a Renault dealer here in France who informed me that he doesn't touch auto boxes, and that (as far as he is aware) there is only one Renault dealer (out of about 15 in total) locally that has a qualified mechanic, I'm pretty sure I'll be doing this job myself. The car is 13 years old now, but has only done 30,000 miles; when i got it in the UK it was worth bugger all, so I'm not going to worry too much if it does die, but i'm determined to keep it going and am pretty confident that i can sort it.

 

[LvR]

I have a vehicle with similar mileage and age and can tell you from personal experience that you do NOT need a "Renault qualified mechanic" to replace the solenoids - on my Scenic it can be done without gearbox removal or stripping the whole car ............. using only willpower and care

Do the oil change first - if the problem remains then it may be necessary to take it further ................... and if you do replace the solenoids make sure they are the updated black Borg Warner units and include the valve body seat seals where the sit

 

[victorludorum]

Cheers for confirming that it's not that bad to do

 

[ClioAutomatic]

Another reason for going into limp mode when hot is overhearing but this obviously only occurs when the engine and gearbox are hot. If it's doing it when cold then the solenoids should be on your list of likely causes.

Cheers

Interesting post there from Ed8, that if it happens when cold it more likely to be caused by the solenoids, but if it happens when hot then it's more likely the oil is overheating.
That sounds logical, and I haven't seen that nice distinction made anywhere else, so thank you Ed8.
So, maybe it's the oil cooler that's caked up; well maybe not "caked" but just restricted somehow. I wonder what you guys think of the "oil cleaner" products you can buy, that claim to clean out the auto box? Or should we just change the fluid?

 

[Dancingdad]

I wonder what you guys think of the "oil cleaner" products you can buy, that claim to clean out the auto box? Or should we just change the fluid?

I have an automatic cynicism whenever I hear of products that claim to clean oil..... unless it includes a team of guys with a filter pack, most it is going to do is "enhance" the structure in someway, probably minor.
Almost as bad as engine flushing oil that used to be popular, cheap oil with detergent in it, guaranteed to FUBAR the new oil you put in after flushing.

 

[Ed8]

You can try changing the oil to fix the problem, however it's a long-shot and you might be better off keeping the 100 quid you spend on oil and put it toward the repair.
Yes, a competent DIY'er can change the solenoids and the gearbox doesn't have to be removed from the car. The solenoids are accessible by removing the front gearbox cover and replacement solenoids are available from many online outlets. But what you will probably need a qualified repairer (not necessarily a main dealer) for, or access to a CLIP, is to flash the gearbox computer that the solenoids have been changed. The software for the old and the new solenoid types is different and if you run the 'new' solenoids on the 'old' software they will likely fail again rather quickly (12 - 18 months). If the solenoids have been replaced in the past then the software is likely already loaded but one is still supposed to tell the computer the oil and solenoids are new. The old and the new solenoid types have different coloured plugs. One is black and one is grey (I can't remember which way they go though). A mix of 'old' and 'new' solenoids is supposed to be verboten too.
I haven't done any work on a DP0 box myself, when my DP0 failed (several times) I paid an independent Renault specialist.

I believe (but don't quote me) that there were two types of heat exchangers on the DP0/AL4 boxes although that might be on the Peugeot version. There may now be some restriction in either the water or oil galleries after 10 or more years of life. It doesn't help that the gearbox is 'sealed for life' so oil changes are not encouraged. Doesn't sound like this is the case here.
Going into limp mode when the engine/gearbox is hot is likely not due to solenoids but probably overheating. Going into limp mode when cold is more likely to be solenoids.
Maybe changing the oil will help with either or both issues, if you have them.


Cheers

 

[ClioAutomatic]

You can try changing the oil to fix the problem, however it's a long-shot and you might be better off keeping the 100 quid you spend on oil and put it toward the repair.

I haven't done any work on a DP0 box myself, when my DP0 failed (several times) I paid an independent Renault specialist.

I believe (but don't quote me) that there were two types of heat exchangers on the DP0/AL4 boxes although that
Maybe changing the oil will help with either or both issues, if you have them.


Cheers

So, I wonder what is the likely cost of a proper repair, from a Renault specialist, for the limp-mode problem? I'm guessing many hundreds, possibly £2,000?

 

[victorludorum]

Here's the latest - I bought a diagnostic tool called MaxiECU (from an Amazon seller who is not an 'authorised' MaxiECU dealer), but sadly it wouldn't connect to my car for more than a couple of seconds. I returned it, but I have been assured by another seller (who is authorised) that the unit will work with my car, and that some of the early units were faulty. I'm tempted to try again with this seller, who seems more professional than the first one, who gave no support at all. I figure that I have 14 days to try, and if it fails again I'll just return it). The one thing that still worries me is that I don't think this software can flash the machine after a solenoid. If I were to replace the old solenoids with direct replacements (i.e. the old style 50hz ones), would the gearbox eventually adjust the software itself, as it does with an oil change? Am I better off going with another diagnostic tool that will cover all the bases? Does this even exist, or is it only the official Renault toy that will do this?

 

[LvR]

If you can find "new" old solenoids somewhere then they will work with no software update (for THAT specific reason anyway) and the box will fairly quickly adapt itself again if driven carefully. Only CLIP (strictly speaking) can flash a new firmware version for the box - most all the other scanners don't even know such a feature exist, and if they do, they don't know where to get the flash file.

A general warning - if you have a scanner that you even vaguely cannot trust to maintain a consistent and reliable connection don't even attempt a software update because you are bound to end up with a useless box thinking its purpose in life is to be a paperweight only ........................also - a software update on ANY computer on the vehicle requires a power supply (about 30 AMP will do - NOT a charger) connected to the battery to ensure a permanent voltage above 13Volt irrespective of happenings on the electrical system on the vehicle

 

[victorludorum]

A big thanks again to all who've chipped in, i really appreciate it I'm learning more and more, but becoming more and more resigned to the fact that i might be snookered on this fix. Does anyone know the part number for the older 50hz solenoids please? All the models I see for sale are the black bodied ones, whereas i think the older ones are brown/orange.

 

[LvR]

So let me then be the one to ask the obvious question:

WHY EXACTLY do you want to go down this rabbit hole?..................

Have you done a fluid change and found it's not helping at all?

Do you have a CLIP log and graph showing what is going wrong when you experience the problem? - in particular - do you have a comparative graph showing the pressure demanded vs measured on the DP0 under various conditions?

FWIW - the solenoid replacement is NOT GUARANTEED to solve ANY problem - there are many other causes of the exact same common pressure regulation problem and its this tripping up the replace the solenoids brigade

Here are Peugeot part numbers of those original pink solenoids - read the rest of the warnings there too just for S+giggles

http://www.fabiotnt.com/cars/peugeot/307/AL4PressureRegulationFault.pdf

 

[victorludorum]

I guess I wanted to try it as it doesn't seem too difficult to do from an engineering point of view. The main problem seems to be the software issue. Another reason is that i went to see my local Renault dealer (I'm in France) and he said he doesn't have a mechanic who knows about autos!! I'm sure there's another one locally that will, but his attitude was simply, 'I don't touch autos, we just replace them when there's a problem'. I'm where I am because I tried changing the oil, but clearly the 60 degree thing is much more crucial than I expected, so i bought the MaxiEcu to solve that issue, in the hope that it could do much more too, but this gearbox firmware seems to be a Renault only thing. I'm going to start actively looking for an independent who has the right software. My current position is that i need to get the oil level right before I can move on.

 

[ClioAutomatic]

FWIW - the solenoid replacement is NOT GUARANTEED to solve ANY problem - there are many other causes of the exact same common pressure regulation problem and its this tripping up the replace the solenoids brigade

http://www.fabiotnt.com/cars/peugeot/307/AL4PressureRegulationFault.pdf

I'm grateful for the input from the more experienced members on this problem.

I do also appreciate Victor's desire to try to fix the gearbox without going to Renault. For me there would be an incredible feeling of "beating the system" if successful. The "system" seems to be that Renault know these auto boxes will fail, and they know they will charge you a huge amount for a full overhaul or replacement, and they hope to sell you a new(er) car instead. Maybe I'm just a bit cynical! The CLIP tool seems to work along the same lines, but in fairness Renault is not the only manufacturer to try to keep the essential work within their dealer network (e.g. have you ever tried to replace the brakes on a modern BMW? )

"Sealed for life" yes, but the life is about 60,000 miles.

I would also be changing the oil and the solenoids, and if it improved the situation a little I'd be quite glad.

 

[LvR]

I guess I wanted to try it as it doesn't seem too difficult to do from an engineering point of view. The main problem seems to be the software issue. Another reason is that i went to see my local Renault dealer (I'm in France) and he said he doesn't have a mechanic who knows about autos!! I'm sure there's another one locally that will, but his attitude was simply, 'I don't touch autos, we just replace them when there's a problem'. I'm where I am because I tried changing the oil, but clearly the 60 degree thing is much more crucial than I expected, so i bought the MaxiEcu to solve that issue, in the hope that it could do much more too, but this gearbox firmware seems to be a Renault only thing. I'm going to start actively looking for an independent who has the right software. My current position is that i need to get the oil level right before I can move on.

Read the forum rules and read between the lines:

Clip can be used with an offline programming DVD to apply the required software update.


Back to normal :

I am also quite a.nal hence my status of being an owner of a 2004 DP0 based Scenic II with currently only 30K km (bought it with only about 10K km 3 years ago). DP0 issues being the main reason for the previous owner getting rid of it ............... I am currently of the opinion I have beaten the Renault system since I have a reliable vehicle as a result of my own efforts only.

I would NOT fit new pink solenoids to the DP0 even if you get them for free.
I would, after having read between the lines, first create the comparative graphs I mentioned earlier following a proper ATF change, and take things from there.

 

[LvR]

I'm grateful for the input from the more experienced members on this problem.

I do also appreciate Victor's desire to try to fix the gearbox without going to Renault. For me there would be an incredible feeling of "beating the system" if successful. The "system" seems to be that Renault know these auto boxes will fail, and they know they will charge you a huge amount for a full overhaul or replacement, and they hope to sell you a new(er) car instead. Maybe I'm just a bit cynical! The CLIP tool seems to work along the same lines, but in fairness Renault is not the only manufacturer to try to keep the essential work within their dealer network (e.g. have you ever tried to replace the brakes on a modern BMW? )

"Sealed for life" yes, but the life is about 60,000 miles.

I would also be changing the oil and the solenoids, and if it improved the situation a little I'd be quite glad.

I don't think you are cynical at all - I share your cynicism 💩 ☠

 

[victorludorum]

So... after another farcical visit to another Renault dealer here in France, i have 2 fault codes: DF131 and DF226, which i think confirm that the solenoids are shot.

This particular dealer was only charging 59 euros for a diagnostic, and after explaining what i thought was the problem to him, he said if it's the solenoids he could do it. Anyway, he phoned yesterday to say that it's not the solenoids and that it's an internal problem which he can't fix, as Renault don't work on autos, which are sealed for life (even though they're still quite happy to sell their awful auto gearboxes!!). I went back today to collect the car and to get an explanation of the problem and he said 'it's something to do with gear slippage and pressure. It's an internal problem, so I can't touch it; I can only replace the box'. I then said to him that that sounds a lot like the solenoid issue, and that the valve block is external, but he was clueless, so I just asked him for the diagnostic readout, which he didn't have, although he did give me the 2 codes on a post-it note and didn't charge me, which is a good thing as I didn't want to start an argument over it. This the second Renault dealer that has been next-to-useless, so I won't be going to another for a third chapter of this farce. At least I have the codes, and i think that that is enough to convince me to buy a Clip and do it myself.

 

[ours2012]

DF131 Slippage (You know its not through dirty oil )


DF226 Automatic transmission internal pressure,,

 

[LvR]

Let me reference #31 above again .........................as usual, my a.nal nature wants me to confirm the existence of an ACTUAL pressure problem.

Put it another way:

Is the tranny slipping because of a real lack of pressure or worn clutch/bands or broken bits (real problems) ...........or

is the tranny slipping because eg the stupid pressure sensor is over-reporting pressures causing a tranny to run with below spec pressures?

.............me? - hang an analogue pressure gauge off the appropriate port and FIRST confirm pressures reported by the TCU

The reason why Renault et-all is scared of quoting upfront for a job like this, is because there can be ABSOLUTELY NO certainty (including CLIP's contributions) about the cause before you start replacing at least some components in a logical fashion in order to aid the faultfinding process

Personally, I wouldn't attach too much value to the codes you were given without CLIP scan results and a comparative pressure graph from cold to hot - I could have given you those codes form here too without even seeing the vehicle and would have been right most likely

 

[victorludorum]

I plan to get a Clip so that i can do the job when the weather gets a bit better. I don't need the car, so it can sit for a while. I may take it out for a short, undemanding run as it was driving better when I took it to the garage, just to see if the oil change has made a difference (even though the chances are very slim).

"hang an analogue pressure gauge off the appropriate port and FIRST confirm pressures reported by the TCU" @LvR Where are these ports?

 

[LvR]

On the infernal DP0 there is only a single port - right at the bottom of the box under the pressure sensor assembly - you will have to extend the mount somehow to achieve this.

On other more service friendly auto boxes there is a port on every band/clutch hydraulic channel - thus you can individually confirm the solenoids doing their thing properly ..................... the absence of these on the DP0 is why the much-hated "internal leaks possible" is often touted by Renault ..........................