Hi,

If the light on your dash for preheating of the engine stays on, then probably there is something wrong with your glowplugs.
Also the initial start going rather difficult would suggest that is the case.
Maybe they are not switched on at all by the relay. Then none of them will heat up inside the engine and you make a complete cold start. Find the relay. See if something is happening when you switch the car key on into first position for preheating.
You do wait some seconds (longer now if the plugs are not working well) every time before turning to the last position, no ?
Could be that a few glow plugs are not really good any more and/or a few are completely broken. I think that is most likely as a cause of your problem.

It's cold .. so .. you will get some dodgy starting now. A diesel engine needs preheating, especially in cold weather conditions.
The fact that when you switch off and restart it starts better, also confirms this because then you start with a slightly warm engine. Black smoke in this case, at the cold start is normal.
Black smoke = Badly burned diesel. Too much diesel or not enough air.
Checking if you still have a good air filter never hurts. If it was never changed before, that could be a problem too of course :laugh:
I would start by checking the glow plug situation first now and see how much that helps.

If you use the throttle hard , it's often normal to get black smoke. The reason is that soot will always get stuck inside the exhaust, especially with calm drivers. If the car was running stationary often lately : same comments .. Will have collected soot inside the exhaust.
An engine that burns oil will also leave the exhaust black and a bit oily / greasy. In a 14 year old diesel car, it's all possible. Check oil level regularly if you drive it often or run the engine often.


If you use throttle hard, you blow it more clean and that means the dirt comes out. That's black ... normal.
If you would be driving it, I would say : do it several times (more revs / throttle), the smoke will get less after a few times if it's just soot inside.
If you need to get an MOT, use a product (fuel additive / cleaner) that is for sale in car part shops. Use it on half tank of fuel or less.. Use double dose (I would do that) and go for a ride. Once the engine is warm, drive it on high revs for some kilometers. That too will blow the tailpipe clean, clean injectors, fuel system.

What you could do is measure the glow plugs using a meter, on resistance / Ohms (car switched off).
There you will notice if there is a difference between the plugs and if one of them has failed.
If a "1" appears on the meter (in my language : infinite ??) , meaning there is no connection between the two points of measurement, that means the glow plug is broken.
You can measure them on Volts too to see if they get power when starting or even afterwards, cause the light stays on all the time.

It doesn't hurt to also check your main battery.
Since the glow plug situation is not optimal, maybe you are losing some juice... But since you manage to start your cold engine without good working glow plugs time after time, it seems still rather ok.
Of course, if you do this often again and again, it will not last for ever and will get drained.

 

Thanks for your tips and comments. Sorry for the late response!

Regarding glowplugs, from my understanding, they are not needed on a 1.5dci unless super cold so wouldn't matter if they was working or not - to my understanding anyway.

I do wait a few seconds and struggle, but i will leave it in position for 10/15 seconds next time to see if it will start any better.
I will make sure to test glow plugs with a voltage meter to make sure they are all outputting the correct voltage. - Is there anyway to test the relay as this could be the problem (Do you know where it is located?)


Nice to know about the exhaust soot, doesn't seem to be oily or anything along those lines just a bit of soot but sometimes she isn't started for a couple of days due to her being converted. I've been looking at completing a full clean by routing the fuel pipes through custom 8mm pipe and using something similar to liqui moly but not sure if it could strip any gaskets or seals due to age and could cause more harm than good. - Still weighing this up.

I'll have to get a volt meter as this isn't something i have in my extensive tool range but will definetly be an ideal purchase so thanks for the tips and how to do it properly.

I may be worrying too much but i dont want to break down and her not start so making sure everything is fully up and running and as clean and reliable as i could hope for before we do set off.

Your suggestions have really helped but i'm just concered that possibly it could be an injector problem but hoping it is just a glowplug issue

 

Glow plug light on a Kangoo doubles as an injection/electrical error signal.
If on all the time, nothing to do with glow plugs generally.
Worth checking them (test resistance across them from central connection to earth) with winter coming but I don't expect that to solve your problem.

Poor start when cold, that is after it has been standing for a while is often due to leaks in the fuel feed system, letting air in and fuel run back to tank. Then the HP pump struggles as they cannot suck air.
Check for any worn fuel pipes, splits in primer bulb and grease around connectors to fuel filter, often seals get hard and aftermarket filters are known for pipes being slightly wrong size, giving seal issues.

 

Poor start when cold, that is after it has been standing for a while is often due to leaks in the fuel feed system, letting air in and fuel run back to tank. Then the HP pump struggles as they cannot suck air.
Check for any worn fuel pipes, splits in primer bulb and grease around connectors to fuel filter, often seals get hard and aftermarket filters are known for pipes being slightly wrong size, giving seal issues.

The fuel filter is greasy, the pipes near the primer are greasy and the primer itsself what would you say be the best fix for this? new filter and replacement of pipe? any easy way to clear the air in the system?

 

I am not experienced at Renault but was thinking rather general... Didnt know about the Kangoo specifics.
Did own one 1.9 diesel long time ago but only had it for a few months as a replacement for an other car. Don't remember too much about it, except it was dark green and had a breakdown 2 times.. One was my mistake. Just pity I was in Germany then (battery).

Generaly speaking again : I suppose the 2004 is not direct injection ? Or is it ?
Edit . K9K is direct injected, common rail.
Direct injected engines can start without glowplugs if it is more than 10 degrees temp.
Thought here is close to freezing. In UK it is usually worse, weather wise. No idea if that is true.

Test relay : Just check your glowplugs receive current and work when you turn the contact on. If that happens .. no worries. The relay works.

I think a clear way to show somebody how to do things on a car are often Youtube movies. Should work better than me trying to explain.

So I found this one for you and i hope you find it helpful :

The test i proposed on resistance / ohm is here :

At the end of the movie, there is an other trick (old days often used one), being a spark test.

Prioritise what Dancingdad advised as I am sure he looks at it rather from experience with the Kangoo and with the Renault brand.
Just wanted to answer your question qbout how to test glow plugs.

 

Thanks, i have just bought multimeter so will test the voltage ect tonight.

I have been advised to look at fuel filter for any metal filings, does anyone know any other methods or symptoms to check for faulty pump apart from metal filings?

I don't have major symptoms of fuel pump failure, i drove back 20 miles on motorway after collecting car and the car had constant power, no loss in revs, no surging ect. Started first time when I went to view it, full service history. However, When coming to stop car jerked but not sure if this could be put down to lack of ABS. - So im sceptical fuel pump issue.

However, since the above the car seems to shake the airbox every so often so leads me to believe an injector issue due to "rattle" so will perform a leak test to check this along with fuel filter for metal filings.

(Bought this for me and my girlfriend for small trips and no issues showed on the day!! started first time and no leaks all looked clean with service history so going to try all i can to fix without her knowing lol!)

My old 2004 clio had 140k miles and was a petrol and never had as many issues as this! - just praying its not the pump thats going!!


Does anyone else have any other advice or am i in the dark at the mintue until i try all the above? Not sure what else can go wrong with these... or what can go right lol

 

Sorry
Missed your reply a few days back.
Greasy pipes, primer etc may well be indicative of a leak.... clean them and give them all a good coating of looking at...inspection.

Filings in fuel filter are an indication that main HP pump is eating itself.
While this can and does happen it is not as often as may be thought.
If you are changing fuel filter, tip the fuel from it into a clean glass jar and let it settle. If sludge gathers at bottom, try a strong magnet to "stir" it from outside of jar.
If it stirs you have major issues but try it before worrying on it.
Cutting filter open is another way but remember you are looking for steel, magnetic, filings, not just gunge.

 

No problems -

Definitely greasy towards the primer bulb, black, sticky gunge, gave them all a little clean but was getting dark so will have to go back again at it. - Are the pipes and primer able to be removed without any issues? As I have just cleaned them whilst they are fitted. Will removing them cause any issues such as any leaks or air getting into system? would any fitments or outlets need blocking off to prevent air getting into system? - If this is easily removable and cleanable i'll just take it off and test for any leaks/splits ect.

Worst case scenario pipes are split/bulbs, I have seen a fuel feed and primer kit on ebay for £24.00 but not sure if the quality would be bad as seems quite cheap: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RENAULT-...95486455?fits=Car+Make:Renault&hash=item25cf8678f7:g:xwgAAOSw2b1Zo7kS:rk:2:pf:0

From looking at my engine, there seems to be a bleed screw for fuel filter which I can test the fuel inside, would the metal still come through this or do you think I'm best to remove and cut open in case filings are stuck to filter? Or would the filings still be floating around in the fuel making the bleed still a viable choice to test for filings?

 

When i read your initial post again and not just jump on the glowplug light leading to glowplugs being worn as an idea,
I would say : faulty injector (or more than one).

If an injector gets old (your car doesn't have enormous mileage but it is from 2004) and getting worn out, it can leak a bit (or more), leaving unburned fuel inside the engine.. And that could be flooding the engine more or less on start up.
You also do get black smoke then. This is a typical situation that you would especially see after a long rest.
A bit harsh you would have to restart 2 or 3 times though..

I remember also about a (Citroen) car that had the beginning of a problem with head gasket, leaving some coolant in the engine after a long rest, but then the smoke would be white / steam or even throwing a bit of water out on start. So I think this is not something to prioritise.

Fuel pump problems would be rather rare too. I never had it myself but I tend to replace my cars rather fast.
There ARE tricks to detect a failing fuel pump (really gone) and a few ones on a dieing pump but I think that would be rather difficult to perform yourself.
You can measure the pressure of the fuel and there is a way to measure the amount of fuel on the 'return' side.. Both should give normal figures then.
But it's not something I would do here at home. I don't have many tools nor a workhouse where I live now (appartment). :frown2:

 

The faulty injector has come up a number of times, would happily take one of these over a faulty HP pump any day. As soon as I know the car is safe to drive I will insure it and take her on some long trips to clear anything but want to make sure I won't damage it anymore by driving it.

Will check voltages on everything, then fuel filter for any metal particles and fuel pipes/primer, then move on to injector leak off check. - my OBD sensor does say fuel pressure and temps ect and live data for sensors but i'm not sure what the normal figure should be for certain things plus it doesn't read DTC's so not sure how accurate the data is.

I have too many tools and too little space!! 5 cars on Drive so space is very limited to say the least without playing Tetris!

 

Injection fault NOT injector fault.
The error shown by glowplug light being on is either electrical error or fuel system error,
Does not pinpoint injector...for that you need a leak off test to start with.

Leaks and fuel filter first.... primer bulb can be a generic from flea bay but will be cutting pipes and joining into system, dunno why Renault do this primer sealed to pipes as a single unit stuff.

Fines if pump does eat itself. Are very fine, many get through filter and into injectors, FUBAR them and end up in complete fuel system. Will be in suspension in fuel as well as clogging filter. If it happens, whole fuel system needed cleaning/replacing... do not wish this on yourself !

 

Will definetly look at fuel filter and leaks first. Then move on to check the injectors as its not too hard of a job to do a leak off test. Will attempt everything in one day if weather permits last time I took EGR off it bloody started hailstoning!! . Definitely hoping its something as simple as leak or primer bulb - would this still throw up the code being illuminated all the time though? My thinking is that it would be intermittent? . Tempted to buy that kit i linked earlier to kill all birds with one stone if the problem does end up being something with leaks.

Can't express how invaluable your advice and tips have been. Will update thread as i go through everything one by one in hope may help someone in future

 

So all, i have just removed the fuel filter, and there are metal filings inside the liquid i poured out from filter. All i can assume is that the pump is going! Must be the cause of these issues... what a bummer...

 

Oooh Sh** !

You are now in the position to decide.
Run it till it dies then scrap it.
Scrap it now before it dies.
Sell it (morally wrong unless you tell the buyer...)
Strip out and clean complete fuel system, replacing bits that will be needed.... latter include pump and injectors.
Tank and pipes in the list of bits to clean.
Do not be tempted to replace odd bits like one clogged injector or the pump, the fines will fubar any new bit put on unless whole system is clean.

 

Will try sell it and advise problem with pump. I've been stung before and its not nice. It's got quite a lot of camper conversrion stuff in it and will let know about pump. After checking the filter, a bit of air has came in the fuel line, do you know how to bleed the air out the system so theres less air?

 

Just another quick question, what should the filings be like in the fuel filter to indicate a damaged fuel pump?? these seem to look like black fine filings? Just trying to exhaust all options before i do take a big hit and sell it for next to nothing....

 

Primer pump should get rid of air... helps if you can pump while friend turns the key.... easy start as well.

Filings, if magnetic, pump.
If not, could be a lot of things but not pump.
You can double check by taking some fuel from pump side of filter... should be clean....let it settle in a clean jar and see if it is.... if sludge in there, try the magnet.

 

I re-bled it from what i've read on here, seems to have removed most of air. These filings were definitely magnetic so thats a shame! Will have to look for a new van to look at will maybe look at getting a ford as generally quite reliable, nothing against renauly just seem to be expensive to put right lol.. even jaguars injectors are cheaper than renault because its basically a mondeo! Thanks for all your help dancing.

 

Thinking economics, .... engine is not end of life yet at this mileage, maybe rather half way.
My 5 am idea : why not get 4 injectors and fuel pump, even from a scrap vehicle + clean pipes and tank ?
Would loss + effort not be smaller ? Since many things for camping are already made to size perhaps and a loss will be made when selling. Also investment on new vehicle ?

If TS is a handy Harry, would taking the bottom part of the sump off and checking the magnet in the sump for metal be useful ? Is the car worth the effort (?)
Determine the state of the engine itself... could say something. Since it had good maintenance before, maybe / probably still in good condition ?

Filings wouldn't go so far, I guess. Injectors being the last passable step (?)

 

08.30 mind says : While you make a balance if the engine is worth some effort or not : add a compression test.
I suppose that will be as good as perfect, but I supposed before the pump wouldn't be a goner either.

 

Your choice but if motor is set up as a camper van, there is a value to it far beyond that of an old Kangoo.
Makes system rebuild more viable.
Shop around for prices on recon pump and injectors.
Tank needs emptying and thorough cleaning. Don't leave it off motor for longer then needed, placcie tanks can distort and make refitting difficult.
Pipes, clean or replace.
Timing will be disturbed hence time to change belt as well.
Other bits like Common Rail need cleaning or replacing.
Garage costs will be high as is lots of labour.
Parts costs far less if you are willing and can use a set of spanners.

 

Thanks for advice, tempted to do it but not sure if it will be worth the hassle cost and time fully.
- Injectors coming back around 100 each, then pump around 150-300 (Unsure on condition of these and unsure on going price as prices differentiate a lot).
- Tempted to just buy a petrol tank from scrap yard and fit this so avoids any filings in there. Pipes wouldnt be too much of a cost to buy, but cleaning maybe viable.

All in looking at a full day or weekend for this job and as i have nowhere undercover its up to the weather! - Seems to take up to around 500-700 on a rough estimate. Is it worth the cost and time? not sure.... something i will have to weigh up. Is it a hard job to do? or is it just very time consuming? any major difficulties?

 

Second vehicle correct - Fully converted the camper by myself, so not had much cost there but have done it to a good standard as very handy with wood. So looks much more expensive than what it cost to build!

Injectors don't really scare me too much, watched quite a few videos but watching one and doing it is another! - My friend has a snap on diagnostics, could this work to code?

What do you class as setting tools?

Bumper off and pump doesn't seem to hard, is flushing the fuel lines rather straightforward? or anything to watch out for? as fuel lines into the tank would need to be cleaned too. Would the lines have to removed or could it be done whilst attached in engine? Would i use air or water? - This is the part i don't understand fully as i've never had to do it. Screws, nuts, bolts and spanners i understand but never had to flush - not too up to scratch on which pipes go where funnily enough.

- Tank, unfortunately, is full so will need a big drain beforehand. Will probably have to hand pump this out.

Spent 1,300 on the vehicle which I regret - seems a bit much now but on the day I thought I was buying something reliable and well looked after due the service history and no apparent issues on the day. - How wrong was I? So all in will be around 2,300 once completed - Or could sell this maybe for 300 - optimistic, +1000/1500 and buy something hitting 2 grand mark - still a loss of 1000 but will hopefully not have to put up with these issues.

Do you have anywhere i can read a full breakdown of how to do it flush clean remove ect? Had a look round forums but nothing i can see - maybe will be in my haynes manual for clio.

 

Pretty sure they're delphi from my knowledge, been costing up work to see if its viable.

 

Hi All, little update.

Diesel specialist close to me have quoted me 1000 all in for repair give or take a hundred. - Just varies due to the pricing of parts and this for a full system flush and replacing major parts. - Labour will remain the same. - Advised if i can find parts cheaper overall cost will be reduced.

Now in a situation where i can get it repaired professionally for around the same price it will cost me to do it myself.

Decisions.

Is there much else that go wrong around this mileage? As my luck, I will get this repaired and something else will go on it not long after.

Also been looking at VW's/Fords and might take a big hit and sell as it is and just upgrade my spending power to 4 grand or around.

 

If I were you, I would see what a new one would cost me minus what you can get for the old one.
If you pay 4000 and you would get 1000 back for the van, it would still cost you 3000.
Plus you would have to rebuild the next van and some thigs from the Renault wouln't fit any more.

What is really something nobody will want to advice you on, is : do you need to keep the Renault.
Nobody can predict the future.
Will this van or the next van give you more trouble. Both are possible.

At this mileage, a broken alternator, starter, waterpump, radiator, airconditioner, battery, glowplugs..
All can / are likely to stop working one of these ...
Keep the timing belt in good condition and change (now !) in time to avoid trouble for an other 60-70k.
The only way you could avoid all that would be to get a new van with 2 - 5 years warranty.
As well this one as the next second hand one could suffer from all these things.

Don't know if you are from UK and if they have a system there that guarantees the mileage of a car.
Here we have a database and every official service point for cars (MOT, garage, tyre center, etc) will have to register the mileage in an official database. I have no idea if you are sure about the mileage for your cars there.. But that's a big issue too. I guess cause you talked about extensive maintenance, you do have the papers to prove it, with registered mileage ?


I once sold a van after 18 months with 100.000 miles on it. Was sold for export where the buyer told me : it will leave this country with the current mileage but it's sure that, before it arrives in the destination country, the mileage will have become a lot less.

 

Very true. All in I would be around 2300 on the Kangoo, if repaired, maybe could ask for around 1700 due to it being converted (some are even going for 3000 but these are showroom quality). Loss of around 600 compared to 1,000.
So spent around 600 in total - maybe use it for a year and sell it.

Or do I take the loss, make life "easier" sell it now for pence, then just use my hard worked money to buy something else... Speaking to diesel specialist he said he sees no end of these come in, said stay with a VW treat it right and it'll carry on climbing.

Shame these kangoos and 1.5dcis have this pump issue as they are brilliant little cars. - Like I say, my Renault was a petrol and went up to 144k somehow and i used to thrash the knackers off it.

Will have to compare prices and weigh up what is the best outcome...

I am from UK correct. - We can normally check the history of the car against mot history standard to make sure mileage checks up with previous tests. - It has full documented history from day one so mileage is warranted. I'll have to dig the history out, I wrote it all down in a book, cambelt was done at 48k, 4 years ago thats all I can remember. Servicing was kept well within the limits of Renaults recommendations and new battery 3 years ago.