Yes the 1.4 is the K4J and the K4M is the 1.6 both engines share the same timing belt. Get a full belt kit as the plastic rollers can and do collapse as well as the belts breaking

IIRC slots are 6mm wide and don't use them to hold the engine when tightening the crank shaft or the TDC pin. As they will more than likely get damaged.


Not at home tonight so can't look in the Haynes manual the crank pulley bolt is angled tightened and probably best to hold the fly wheel with one of these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VS1284-Flywhe...lt-Petrol-Diesel-/390238429077?pt=UK_Measuring_Tools_Levels&hash=item5adc05df95

I have seen them cheaper on the internet

 

thanks for the reply. I'm going to get a complete timing belt kit, as i dont want to risk just the belt. how important is it to angle tighten the pulley bolt? i was hoping to get away with just doing it murder tight. jerry

 

i was hoping to get away with just doing it murder tight. jerry

lol never done that me :d


If you don't have a flywheel locking tool it's difficult to judge how far you've turned the bolt even with the car in gear and some one standing on the brakes as there is a lot of springing.

In the past I have got away with initially nipping the bolt up with the TDC setting pin and cam shaft locking tool in place and after removing them “doing it murder tight” with an air impact wrench. I also put a few drops of thread lock on the crank pulley bolt for safe measure.Never had one come undone yet. I might regret having said that!

 

The crankshaft pulley bolt is a stretch use-only-once bolt so it is essential it be renewed each time it is tightened. Failure to do so can result in serious engine damage.
I would suggest you buy or get the loan of a timing kit - not only has the camshafts to be held in place but also there is a crankshaft locking pin. Beware there are two different types of pin - one a slide fit the other being a screw fit - you'll need the correct one to suit your engine.
I would suggest you research how to do the job correctly as any wrong move can result is serious engine damage.
It is also recommended to replace the water pump at the same time. Plus also check the auxiliary belt and its tensioner, etc. It is not uncommon for a failing auxilary belt to take a perfectly new timing belt with it.

 

"crankshaft accessories pulley mounting bolt 40 Nm + 145°± 15°"
No reason not to use the timing pin when tightening (not when removing) But not with an impact wrench!
Impact wrench useful for removal.

 

Sorry but disagree the pin is only 8mm diameter and quite long I wouldn't want to bend it.

With the engine free to rotate it's not the same as using an impact wrench on a locked engine.

 

The pin is axially loaded in compression, no bending, and is the Renault recommended method of locking the crankshaft when tightening the crank bolt.

"Position the camshaft pulley locking tool
Check that the crankshaft is in contact with the TDC setting pin
Tighten to torque and angle the accessories pulley mounting bolt ( 40 Nm +
115° ± 15° ) (crankshaft in contact with TDC setting pin)"

 

The best way to lock the engine is using a flywheel locking tool as I 1st suggested in post 2

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VS1284-Flywhee...item5adc05df95




I can’t see how the TDC pin is “axially loaded in compression”? I would have said the TDC pin is in shear which will cause the pin to bend if enough force is applied. The crank pulley bolt diameter is greater than that of the TDC pin so much stronger.

 

Perhaps you should write to Renault and explain the error of their ways
Your diagram is unrepresentative of the actual arrangement. Simply, you show the timing pin axis in line with the centre line of the crankshaft, the pin in fact engages with the cheek of the crankshaft and is offset(above) from it's centre line.

 

So how can you tell which is the K type and which is the F type engine?

The TDC pin setting holes must be in difference places?

Roby has stated and I quote

the pin in fact engages with the cheek of the crankshaft and is offset(above) from it's centre line.

So then therefore it has to be far enough above the crank shaft centre line for the crank shaft to be acting perpendicularly ( right angels) to the end of the setting pin. Here is another crapy sketch but Microsoft paint is the best I have to produce for pictorial purposes what I imagine is happening?

Today when I got home I have measured a 2.0 16 V F4R block I have in the garage. This engine uses the same cam shaft locking tool as the 1.4 K4J, 1.6 K4M and 1.8 F4P and all 4 engines have the same timing procedure. The F4R has a TDC setting hole in the crank as opposed to the K4J slot

Using the bottom of the block as a reference face the distance to the centre line of the crank was approximately 60mm. The distance to the centre line of the TDC pin was approximately 34.25mm therefore putting the distance of the centre line of the TDC pin 25.75mm below that of the crank shaft . I have measured as best I could a K4J engine in a Scenic and get the figure of an approximate 26mm TDC pin centre line below that of the crank shaft centre line. I would say that both engines probably do share the same dimension?


Sorry that the photo quality isn't very good

 

How accurate is an electronic *** packet sketch supposed to be? :idunno:

Not currently having access to a CAD package or a crank shaft and case to measure you are of course correct :bowdown: the whole sketch is dimensionally incorrect. :d


As with most things there is usually more than way to do things and as long as the end result is correct does it really matter. :driving:

 

On Renault engines there are two methods of positioning the crankshaft.

One is where a plain pin (rod) is inserted through a hole in the block and locates into a slot machined into the web of the crank. When located the crankshaft cannot turn in either direction. Any attempt to rotate the crankshaft will cause shear stresses on the pin with the risk of either it bending or breaking the pin itself. There are two variations of this type of pin - one is straight and the other is stepped.

The other method uses a pin of a pre-determined length which screws into the block and its end rests against a step machined into the crank web. When located it prevents the crank from turning clockwise (as view form the front of the engine) but still can be rotated ant-clockwise. Using this type any pressure from the crank acts in compression so in effect it can be used as a stop during the tightening process.

So before commencing the job you need to determine which type of pin (3 possibilities) is suitable otherwise the timing will be incorrect.

 

In a way, everyone's right

The two 16V engine types of this vintage - the 'K type' and 'F type' are very similar in many ways, but have a few important differences.

As mentioned, the 'F' engine uses a slot in the crank web, and a sliding-fit setting pin. Renault explicitly state that the setting pin must not be used for pulley bolt removal, and only for the initial low torquing up when refitting - not for the final angle-tightening.

On the 'K' engine, the screw-fit setting pin bears against a flat, machined on the crank web - which is indeed travelling along the pin axis when it makes contact. Consequently, (as roby says) Renault do state that the setting pin can be used to restrain the crank - both during the intial torquing, and the final angle-tightening. A flywheel locking tool is needed for pulley bolt removal because the web flat is free to move away from the setting pin. The Renault manual shows the setting pin still in place with the flywheel locking tool attached, because it isn't going to get damaged.

Just one query for roby on the bolt setting torque: the K4M (1.6) manual states 20Nm + 135° (±15°). Is it different on the K4J?

 

Thanks for all the help everyone, i've found it very useful. I'm going to change the belt next weekend and have decided to do the water pump and auxillery belt at the same time, as advised. I was amazed at how cheaply i can get the parts! The timing belt kit, water pump and auxillery belt all come to just under £100, i'm pretty chuffed with that. Thanks again, Jerry

 

"Just one query for roby on the bolt setting torque: the K4M (1.6) manual states 20Nm + 135° (±15°). Is it different on the K4J?"
That raises a few questions. Seems it depends upon which hymn sheet we're singing from!
For the K4M Scenic 40Nm+115° ±15° for K4M Megane 40Nm+145° ±15°
Possibly variations are due to different crank pulley bolts, my 100bhp Scenic has a 14mm set bolt while 80bhp dci's use a 12mm set bolt.
The F4R engine in the Megane does not use the timing pin for the crank bolt tightening. It seems that where the timing pin is used for tightening the crank bolt the timing pin is threaded and screwed into the crankcase, where it is not used for tightening, the timing pin is not threaded and is just a push fit. Further the threaded pin locks the crank uni-directionally and the plain pin locks the crank in one position.

 

"When where the engines with the TDC setting pins above the crank shaft center lines used? as I haven't seen one yet?"
If the crank is locked in one direction by the timing pin then the crank is brought into contact with the crank by rotating CW(timing end) therefore the timing pin must be above the centre line of the crank since the timing pin is located horizontally on the front of the engine. That is certainly the situation with the K9K engine.

 

I have K4m in bits now, snapped belt. Cams still have pulley wheels attached, nt removed crank pulley yet as waiting to fit valves in head when they arrive. Can I ask if I can just foit cams back inwith pulley wheels attached, also, what happens if you do not have a TDC pin ?, and can you get timing belt on with crankpulley till fitted, and lower timing cover levered out of the way ? I am passing conkers thinking about what can go wrong here ?

 

If the cam shafts where removed without having to undo the sprockets? Then you should be able to reassemble them like that. You are still going to need a cam shaft locking tool to hold the shafts to time them correctly.

You can buy a set of TDC pins for around £15 and will need the crank shaft locking in place for initial crank pulley bolt tightening and as per the discussion further up the thread possibly for full tightening.

I would think it highly unlikely you could “lever” the lower timing belt cover out of the way with out breaking it! It’s just going to get in the way even if it is possible to change the belt with the cover on?? IMO you should remove it.

You are going to have to undo and remove the crank pulley bolt to remove the auxiliary pulley to get the timing belt onto the crank shaft sprocket behind it.

 

I didn’t think it was possible to remove the upper cylinder head with the cam sprockets still in place? I have repaired two F4R engines with collapsed guide rollers and had to remove the cam shaft sprockets to be able to remove the upper cylinder heads the 2nd was half dismantled when I got the car and again I couldn’t see how to remove the upper cylinder head with the cam sprockets in place? So I fastened the upper cylinder back down to hold the cam shafts in place whilst I removed the sprockets.

When I bought my Scenic 1.4 with a snapped cam belt I assumed I wouldn’t be able to remove the upper cylinder head of the K4J engine with out removing the cam shaft sprockets? But maybe I was wrong thats not the case with this engine?

Are the K4J and K4M cylinder heads the same? I know they both use the same head gaskets and use the same size valves. I see in the Haynes manual they both share the same bore size.

 

Sorry iv'e been missing for a week, planning Austrian biking hols.

AFAIK the K4J & K4M heads are the same, CC diff is from a longer stroke on the 1.6.
Cam timing slots are 5mm wide, see this thread for timing tool dimensions:- http://www.renaultforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=699106#post699106
Even if you could get the belt on without crank pulley removal, IMHO the timing would not be accurate.
FWIW, I tightened the pulley nut against the TDC pin, with no damage, but maybe the K4M crank would bend the pin, as the crank is obviously different due to it's different stroke.
As for "passing conkers" I had a fortnight thinking about this, as the weather was NBG. On the day, it went like clockwork, just be methodical & think of consequences, before doing anything that may make the valves get too close to the pistons again.
Just my 4d
Tim

 

As for "passing conkers"

There was me thinking he was driving past it on the A/ M42 http://www.visitconkers.com/contact/ :d last