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574K views 1.2K replies 218 participants last post by  MaddogReynolds  
#1 ·
BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Anyone heard of any problems with the bonnet catch on Clios? My bonnet opened while I was driving along at 60 mph and caused £2,500 worth of damage even though the interior bonnet catch had not been pulled.

All information gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.
 
#967 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Am I right in thinking that Vosa's statement that there was an insert to "owners' manuals" is a bit confusing? The letter which Renault sent contained an insert for the "maintenance booklet to remind your dealer to check this item at each service" - which I take to mean the service booklet (for the attention of garages) rather than the owner's handbook (of basic instructions).

As for the development of the story up until now: When 'Watchdog' began covering this, I remember they had on some motoring expert who could not understand why Renault had not done what Alfa Romeo had done when drivers were having similar problems with the bonnets on their 147s and 156s.

As far as I can see just from a trawl through the web, Renault's response over time has mirrored that of Alfa Romeo: Alfa drivers were asked to bring in their cars at which point their latches were checked and replaced free if necessary.

(It also seems that some Alfa drivers are still experiencing accidents, complaining that they did not receive the letters.)
 
#968 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Mine as a note in the docs on a Renault service bill
to say the bonnet as been checked, the safety catch
is made of steel, I believe some are plastic, and everything
works smoothly, it does have a noticeably strong spring
and it definitely is a strong spring as opposed to any thing
binding or stiff, I wounder if it's to do with the aerodynamics
of the car causing a very strong lifting effect on the
bonnet at speed, its been ok for 2 years and over 22,000
miles but that's no guarantee.
 
#969 ·
#970 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Another day, another shoddy (but detailed) response from VOSA. Shame Renault-Nissan's CEO has decided to not respond to my follow-up email.

Why is it that if were the US, a recall would have been issued, but here in the UK, our crap laws have no teeth, and we as consumers are powerless to do anything about it! It's such a shoddy system!!

"Thank you for your further email of 2 April. I note this was copied to the Secretary of State, the Minister and Alastair Peoples. Please accept this as a consolidated response.
As you are aware, reports of alleged safety defects with vehicle components are handled by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency’s (VOSA’s) Vehicle Safety Branch (VSB) under the terms of the UK Code of Practice on Vehicle Safety Defects which implements the requirement of The General Product Safety Directive 2005.

The Code defines a safety defect as a ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death.’ Defects which are detectable by routine servicing or maintenance are not subject to the Code. The numbers of vehicles involved and their age or maintenance regime has no bearing on the matter.

VOSA will follow up defects where the safety of road users could be improved with additional advice from the manufacturer, for example with respect to maintenance or use. In this case, as discussed in my letter of 24 March, VOSA has worked with Renault whose campaign has provided positive guidance to its customers.

A bonnet catch has many moving and functioning parts and there is the potential that a failure might occur on any model of car of any age for a number of reasons not related to the vehicle’s design or construction. As the Renault campaign has highlighted, the risk can be prevented or minimised by regular servicing and maintenance.

Regarding requests made under the Freedom of Information Act, these should be addressed to VOSA’s Information Access Team at the above address or emailed to: inform@vosa.gsi.gov.uk. If a requestor is not satisfied with the outcome of the request they may write to VOSA’s Corporate Office at the above address to ask for a review of the decision. Should they remain dissatisfied they may appeal VOSA’s decision with the Information Commissioner’s Office.

As I have explained before, VOSA’s Vehicle Safety Branch has investigated this case in accordance with the Codes of Practice and determined that there is not a safety defect as defined by the Code. We will not be taking any further action in this matter.
I realise you are unhappy with this outcome but we have correctly followed our procedures and there are no plans to change the current arrangements for dealing with reports of alleged safety defects. Although I am content to correspond further on this matter, VOSA’s position will remain unchanged and supportive of the steps taken by Renault to mitigate this non-safety recall issue."


Views welcome as always!
 
#971 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

The guy that wrote the reply is having a laugh ain't he. Does he think everyone is stupid with no technical know-how.
What makes me think so - well I quote from his letter

"A bonnet catch has many moving and functioning parts"

The secondary bonnet catch consists of a lever, a spring and a pin. Now maybe I can't count but I make that whole total of three parts and in my opinion no way can I stretch my imagination to make that many.
Now how on earth does he arrive at that conclusion or is some numpty feeding him mushroom food.


His next point and I quote:-

The Code defines a safety defect asa ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death.’ Well if a bonnet flying up and obscuring the drivers vision when travelling at speed isn't liable to cause personal injury or death I just can't understand his reasoning whatsover.

I suggest you keep writing as he seems to be suffering from foot and mouth disease - yes every time he opens his mouth he puts his foot in it.:rofl:

Obviously VOSA needs a clear out starting at the top - me thinks.:)

I have always had suspicions that it wasn't so much Renault who let people down in this instance but VOSA - now I'm convinced - well and truly.:)

In all honesty I personally think this man should hang his head in shame.:mad:
 
#974 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

The guy that wrote the reply is having a laugh ain't he. Does he think everyone is stupid with no technical know-how.
What makes me think so - well I quote from his letter

"A bonnet catch has many moving and functioning parts"

The secondary bonnet catch consists of a lever, a spring and a pin. Now maybe I can't count but I make that whole total of three parts and in my opinion no way can I stretch my imagination to make that many.
Now how on earth does he arrive at that conclusion or is some numpty feeding him mushroom food.


His next point and I quote:-

The Code defines a safety defect asa ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death.’ Well if a bonnet flying up and obscuring the drivers vision when travelling at speed isn't liable to cause personal injury or death I just can't understand his reasoning whatsover.

I suggest you keep writing as he seems to be suffering from foot and mouth disease - yes every time he opens his mouth he puts his foot in it.:rofl:

Obviously VOSA needs a clear out starting at the top - me thinks.:)

I have always had suspicions that it wasn't so much Renault who let people down in this instance but VOSA - now I'm convinced - well and truly.:)

In all honesty I personally think this man should hang his head in shame.:mad:
This really is a comedy of errors - the responses from both Renault and VOSA are sooo laughable. It I weren't one of those unfortunate statistics that experienced this, I would be accused of being sooo insensitive to the cause! It's IS a JOKE! (and that's referring to the responses received).

But don't worry, I ain't stopping.

We need justice, we need more action (not less)...there are few elements that I need to raise to him...or should I say his boss' boss (that's the Minister of Transport Safety to you and I!).

Nice to see he didn't fancied responding more directly to my questions though - hey-ho, can't have it all! Should expect a deviated response to my list of questions! Haha!!

Are there any other "technical" experts out there that would like an opportunity to rip their letter to shreads...cos it is written without any technical evidence whatsoever...it's a political business response to a very serious matter...

Where did I put that rocket that I want to light...oh that's right it's under the Renault-Nissan Group HQ :)
 
#972 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Brigatti as you mention - VOSA are a waste of space. The fact that they allow the vehicle manufacturers to carry out their own investigation is testiment to that. Plus they really do not like making waves and are fairly limp-wristed in their approach doesn't help.

The only reason I got anywhere with the whole Scenic door mirror switch recall (sorry Quality Campaign) is that it was a part fitted inside the door with no user servicable parts and not mentioned in any service schedule. I am still being contacted by Scenic owners who's cars are bursting into flames and taking other cars / property with them. Thankfully nobody has been killed yet.

I hope you can get somewhere but it doesn't look great does it?
 
#973 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Brigatti as you mention - VOSA are a waste of space. The fact that they allow the vehicle manufacturers to carry out their own investigation is testiment to that. Plus they really do not like making waves and are fairly limp-wristed in their approach doesn't help.

The only reason I got anywhere with the whole Scenic door mirror switch recall (sorry Quality Campaign) is that it was a part fitted inside the door with no user servicable parts and not mentioned in any service schedule. I am still being contacted by Scenic owners who's cars are bursting into flames and taking other cars / property with them. Thankfully nobody has been killed yet.

I hope you can get somewhere but it doesn't look great does it?
On a slightly different note, you might see some resonance to the following point:

I did try to take a retailer to the Small Claims court ...it was cough, cough...Paul Simons... for "allegedly" (just to cover my tush!) delivering my parent's a bed with bedbugs. We went all the way to a court aiming to rip to shreds the performance that they called an "investigation", namely doing nothing.

The judge simply stated we had to PROVE that the bed was delivered with bed bugs...hang on, you don't sleep in a bed until it's assembled. It was only a a few weeks that we noted that something was wrong, i.e. my mother was getting bitten all over!

Irrespective of this and a report which indicated bedbugs existed, the judge simply stated that without proof of the bed at point of delivery was infected, there was nothing he could do...and gave us 28 days adjournment to consider our legal position!

Oh the judge admitted that the "law is an ass" from Dicken's famous novel! So true!

The point I am making is that EVEN if someone took Renault to court, there would be using this simply context of the (UK) law to their advantage and worm their way out of this. Even if we had a report that showed the mechanism was faulty, Renault would simply state it was "OUR FAULT" (ring any bells??). It all makes sense why these manufactures/retailers etc choose the denial route, because they can hide behind the law and can seemingly get away with it.

Our consumer laws are shoddy is this Country. Lets look at it another way, in the US, if it weren't for the threat of litigation by a class action lawsuit against Toyota, I don't think they would have done a recall. It was the $$$ that decisioned this. The irony in that case (where the recall WAS issued), is that the same context applied to Renault. The US Congress complained about the delays Toyota "constantly dismissed" the possibility that it was their parts that was causing the problem, when a report was published confirming the issue, that Toyota took took long to link the cause and commencing the recommendations (recall), and that it was too slow in issuing and triggering the recall and contacting customers. Again, ring any bells. Think we can change this to Renault quite easily :)

EVEN if someone was unfortuate to get injured or worst killed by this "safety defect", it wouldn't surprise me that Renault would still have the attitude to blame the driver/owner - this is my concern! Those that haven't got a voice are too easily the cause of something which isn't are thought!

Wrong, so very wrong!
 
#975 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Chance for another go at VOSA...well they are such an easy target...especially based on their latest response...I know less is more...but I got carried out, as per usual!


Thank you for your letter dated and received on 19th April.

I don’t think the bonnet catch fundamental mechanism is complex as you seem to imply. Renault has agreed that it is a simple 2-catch mechanism in their previous correspondence to me, so I would question your stance on some of the points you’ve quoted, which seems to contradict the manufactures own opinions on the functionality and closure process for the same mechanism.

• It is also clear that any “potential” of failure is far from satisfactorily. To put this into context, DoT / VOSA are therefore stating that it is acceptable for a safety mechanism to fail, and still be deemed safe. You are trying to justify that 55,000+ bonnet failures for Renault Clio’s is acceptable (1), when it simply should not be the case. A safety mechanism should not be allowed to fail in its basic function. The bonnet safety catch primary function is to prevent a bonnet releasing and obscuring the driver’s visibility through the front windscreen. I disagree with you on your comment; the safety mechanism in the Clio Mk2 has simply failed and the safety catch design is not safe.

• Referencing your views on whether this is a defect in accordance to the “Code of Practice(2)” policies. The number involved with a particular issue/safety defect is actually part of the equation. The policies quotes the definition as “the defect appears to be common to a number of vehicles”. I disagree with you on this point too, vehicle volumes do matter. You are not even able to interpret your own Code of Practice!

• “A ‘safety defect’ is a feature of design or construction liable to cause significant risk of personal injury or death.” Please can you explain why the Clio catch failure is not one that causes significant risk of personal injury or death? I find your position untenably if you think something that could have killed me and the other motorists around me (i.e. could have caused a fatal RTA), is not a safety risk. What justification do you have to make such an outrageous statement? I disagree with you on your comment. Actually, it’s quite insulting for VOSA to continue to try to make such justifications for VOSA’s apparent failure to deal with matter more professionally and honourably. There is no respect shown to the DoT/VOSA for a matter that could have killed thousands of people. I guess it is pure luck that deaths have been avoided (unless?), and this has nothing to do with the two “invitations” correspondence sent out by Renault.

• I do not see “positive guidance” being received from Renault. Renault has opted to shy away from investigating any cases filed going forward (they only looked into 1 case in 2006). Renault accused the motorist / owner of causing the incident, which is quite a slanderous statement, only to then advise that it was down to the maintenance (corrosion) of their mechanism (which was Renault’s responsibility and liability). All in all, if you believe Renault has been honourably in the way they have dealt with this safety risk, then you are quite mistaken. It was only because of the public pressure (including me and the UK media) on VOSA and Renault, that we ensured you enforced notifications to owners. VOSA agreed that the process followed was an “informal recall”, but this is not the same as a formal recall no matter how you position in. A recall is a recall, and by the Code of Practice definition, this particular case should have deemed as a safety recall. Therefore, I disagree with your comment. A formal recall should have been followed.

• I have requested a FoI, and do not need to file a further FoI. Let me outline what appear to be quite incompetent statements from VOSA’s VSB(3)
o “VOSA has undertaken inspections on an additional 3 vehicles, thereby bringing the total to 6 vehicles. The details of these inspections are not documented
o VOSA’s Vehicle Safety Branch have also undertaken 10 (ten) random checks on vehicles which have not been documented. The VSB engineers continue examinations on an adhoc basis in respect of any Renault Clio they encounter, however no contemporaneous notes are made
o A further 2 joint VOSA/Renault vehicles inspections have been undertaken, these details are not documented by VOSA.”

As you need to continue to collate evidence in case a defect is established, this requires all parts of your assessments (part of your wider investigation) to be documented. This proves that your department’s investigation was not completed effectively and brings your own organisation into disrepute. How can a department who is responsible for “vehicle safety” perform like this? This is outrageous and really means your investigation department is not competent to complete any safety investigations at all. I cannot agree that you have investigated this particular case in accordance to your Code of Practice. Therefore, I disagree with your comments. You are inferring that your organisation doesn’t have the ability to complete a thorough or impartial investigation (VOSA has admitted it didn’t have the technical experts); any assessments completed are not necessarily documented and contravene your own Code of Practice.

• Another quote from your Code of Practice: “Vehicle manufacturers will notify VOSA of the response rate at 3 monthly intervals until the recall action is complete or it is mutually agreed that the campaign be closed as any remaining unactioned vehicles are unlikely to be traced”. A formal recall would have triggered the continual communications to the owner base (including to any new owners following an ownership exchange). As you did not invoke this formal recall process, this means neither Renault nor VOSA are continuing to communicate to the customer base. Since a proportion of the vehicle base has not been checked, we will continue to hear about incidents to continue to happen. We have evidence that this is the case, so your inactions are proving quite unsustainable. You quoted that you “will not take any further action”. How can you make this statement, when incidents continue to occur on the UK roads? Your department’s role is to prevent these issues re-occurring, and fully mitigate the risk. More importantly, the manufacture has the duty of care to replace all defective mechanisms to one that can withstand general usage on the UK roads.

We have all lost faith in VOSA’s ability to deal with any safety reports filed to it and I thank you for confirming your inability to deal with the confirmed safety defects. I can only agree with you one thing, that I am far from satisfied with VOSA’s attitude towards something that could have killed me.

Footnotes:
(1) Based on your previous commentary in your 31st March 2010 correspondence that “11% of Clio Mk2s submitted for (MOT) tests failed due to problems with the bonnet catch” with over 500,000 Clios Mk2/Campus models in the UK.
(2) Code of Practice - http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/static/codeofpractice.htm (maintenance not referenced)
(3) A copy of the FoI is located here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/07 152a.pdf
 
#976 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

I eagerly await VOSA's response - should make good interesting reading.:d

If what you say is true in your letter regarding the following statement i.e.

VOSA has admitted it didn’t have the technical experts

In my opinion if that is the case the organisation is clearly not fit for purpose and this is coming from a department who the general public believes monitors the standards of the MOT system.:crazy:
 
#977 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

I eagerly await VOSA's response - should make good interesting reading.:d

If what you say is true in your letter regarding the following statement i.e.

VOSA has admitted it didn’t have the technical experts

In my opinion if that is the case the organisation is clearly not fit for purpose and this is coming from a department who the general public believes monitors the standards of the MOT system.:crazy:
Yep I think I got this documented from VOSA in one of their previous replies. You do have to laugh.

Maybe my tone to this poor chap was quite inappropriate, but I wanted to keep stating "I disagree with his comments"...to make VOSA feel quite small in front of their Minstry bosses at the DoT (who have been copied into these notes).

Your comments are appreciated! :d
 
#978 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Firstly do not try to criticise him as an individul but stick to the points which are relevant and contestable. It's probably best to stick to bulleted points on which he has to answer. Keep them short - thus giving him little opportunity to waffle. This guy should be out electioneering not running a department charged with overseeing vital safety.:rofl:

For example one interesting point would be "why does VOSA not have the technical ability to carry out its own investigations.
Another would be "Yes the organisation does not carry out investigations to the same level as a criminal investigation but if the situation doesn't merit such what level of investigation would be seen as suitable in his view."
Yet another "does he not feel that a bonnet catch failure is potentially life threatening"

Ideally you'll need to try and nail him down to relevant technical facts as this seem to be his weakness.

I'm looking forward to the next thrilling instalment.:)
 
#979 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Without wishing to defend Vosa's competence or incompetence, I would just like to explain how I read the Vosa man's much-quoted statement:

The Code defines a safety defect as a ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death'.

To me, the statement does not imply that a bonnet flying up is not a safety issue.

Instead it makes the point that Vosa considers a safety defect as one which is caused by 'a feature of design or construction'. (Bald tyres and worn brakes are life-threatening issues but presumably would not come under Vosa's definition of a 'safety defect' because they are not a 'feature of design or construction'.)

In Vosa's eyes - as it has implied - a safety catch which has seized open belongs to the category of problems that may be dangerous but are not caused by bad design or construction.
 
#981 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Without wishing to defend Vosa's competence or incompetence, I would just like to explain how I read the Vosa man's much-quoted statement:

The Code defines a safety defect as a ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death'.

To me, the statement does not imply that a bonnet flying up is not a safety issue.

Instead it makes the point that Vosa considers a safety defect as one which is caused by 'a feature of design or construction'. (Bald tyres and worn brakes are life-threatening issues but presumably would not come under Vosa's definition of a 'safety defect' because they are not a 'feature of design or construction'.)

In Vosa's eyes - as it has implied - a safety catch which has seized open belongs to the category of problems that may be dangerous but are not caused by bad design or construction.
This ultimately is the issue. The interpretation of the CoP is the core element up for debate.

I have been in contact with a number of representatives in the industry who have also stated other "defects" that seem to fall outside of the safety CoP / recall process. i.e. the system is failing us.

You are correct taking this intrepration - as this is how RUk and VOSA have positioned their rationale (and inactions). However, there is ONE important consideration which infers that this is a safety defect!

If the bonnet catch mechanism was deemed to require "maintenance" in the first place (by the nature of the design / manufacturing process), then I agree that this would not necessarily have been such an issue - although it would raise the question why after maintenance the mechanism still failed.

HOWEVER, the case of Renault Clio Mark-2 - the mechanism was designed and manufactured as "MAINTENANCE-FREE" - so the question of maintenance is a diversion and should not be taking in the wrong context.

The design specification has changed (only after Media / Public pressure) to one that requires this mechanism to require maintenance. Something that changes fundamentally like this signifies and infers a defect has been found.

Another bigger problem is that even with maintenance, the root-cause is not fully being resolved. Incidents will continue, because the way the mechanism is designed means that the safety catch can remain disengaged (even though the main catch is engaged). This is a fault, as the purpose of the safety catch is that it should prevent the bonnet releasing all the way - it should also be detectable that a safety catch has not been engaged when the bonnet is flush. In most vehicles, you can tell because the bonnet is still ajar, and remains on safety only. In the case of the Clios, there is a chance that you engage the main catch, but the safety is not engaged. This is a fault! If the catch safety mechanism cannot function in 100% cases, then it should NOT be deemed (labelled) as a safety catch/mechanism, it is just a secondary catch (which means it could also be disengaged). Thus, the functionality of the safety catch is debatable! If this cannot function in 100% cases then they need a further catch (3rd catch) to perform the safety function. Can you see the point I am making, the functionality of the mechanism is at fault! (Nothing to do with maintenance)!!

Can you imagine this in the context of your airbag, you think it works, but in an emergency case (you hit something), there is a chance it doesn't inflate...then this is a fault, no matter if it is maintained during servicing!

Personally, maintenance should not really be used as a reason whether something is a safety defect or not...something which fails in such a scale as this, should be deemed as a safety risk!

Take the airspace example - jsut because of a theortical risk (no firm documented evidence), they shut down the skies and Number 10 told us customer safety was of paramount importance over and above the knock-on disruption. Ergh...they should take the same stance with these types of road-safety risks...the risk to the occupants and other road users is too great.

It is a defect - period.

Sorry to be firm, I do value everyone's opinion, but until you experience an incident, you will not fully understand how we all feel about this!
 
#980 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

I see your point Philip but surely maintenance schedules and standards are part and parcel of the design remit. Trying to judge a cars safety standards without considering this aspect is not what I would consider good or decent policy and in some ways is negligent.

To make an anology imagine what would happen if an airline maintained its planes to the standard set down by the manufacturer and due to a fault or failure in the manufacturers prescribed maintenance schedule the plane crashed who would be held to blame and responsible. You can be sure the relevant aviation authorites who monitor such ocurrences (substitute VOSA in this case) would take much stronger action and if they failed to do so would themselves be held to be negligent in their duty of care.
In my view VOSA has acted negligently failing in their duty of care to the public who rely on them to ensure road vehicles are up to a decent safety standard.

In my opinion I think the Home Secretary John Reids damning of his department's immigration operation as "not fit for purpose" with "inadequate" leadership and management systems. would apply in this situation.:mad:
 
#982 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Another response from VOSA - as we reach D-Day on a potential change of Government here in the UK, I wonder if the DoT would change this stance. It seems VOSA is not the right organisation to deal with determining whether a safety defect exist.

"Thank you for your further letter of 20 April.

It is evident from your comments that, despite extensive correspondence, I and my colleagues have failed to successfully explain to you VOSA’s position in terms of vehicle defects. I hope now to make this clear and to confirm the action that has been taken to assist owners of Renault Clio IIs.
Before proceeding with this response I must apologise for an error in my letter to you of 31 March. The figures quoted for test failures were incorrect. The letter stated that the last analysis of MOT test failure data showed 11% of Clio IIs submitted for test failing due to problems with the bonnet catch as opposed to a failure rate for the same reason of 15% across all makes and models. The actual figures were those quoted to you in Hugh Edwards’ letter of 5 March 2007: 0.11% of all vehicle failures related to the bonnet catch whereas the reason for failure for 0.15% of all Renault Clios and 0.11% of Clios built between 1998 and 2002 related to the bonnet catch. I am sorry that this transcription error has given you an overstated picture of the problem.
VOSA’s prime concern is the safety of road users. I agree with you that the sudden opening of a car’s bonnet is very frightening and a threat to safety, however, it is the cause of this occurrence that concerns VOSA. As we have explained, our powers to act to enforce the safety standards of the automotive industry are granted by the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 and the work is carried out in accordance with the UK Code of Practice on Vehicle Safety Defects. These regulations and codes of practice determine our remit to pursue formally only those defects which are deemed to be part of the design or construction of a vehicle.
In 2006, when we first received reports from members of the public alleging that bonnets on Renault Clio IIs were opening inadvertently, we instigated and oversaw an investigation conducted by Renault. In 2007 the investigation concluded that the issue was not caused by a defect in the design and construction of the bonnet catch, as covered by the Code of Practice on Safety Defects, but was an issue caused by a lack of the required maintenance of the part or the failure to close the bonnet

correctly or a combination of both factors. Thus, whilst we accept that the inadvertent opening of the bonnet is a safety hazard, it is not a ‘safety defect’ under the terms of the Code and, therefore, it is not within VOSA’s remit to compel the manufacturer to take action.
Although the problem with the Clio II was found not to be a ‘safety defect’, VOSA and Renault understood the concern of drivers and the potential safety hazard and agreed on non-coded action to support Renault in gaining vehicle keeper information from DVLA to enable them to take robust action to notify those registered keepers of the potential problem.
In 2007 Renault UK updated the Clio II owners’ manual and the service plans held at the dealerships to remind owners and technicians of the maintenance schedule with regard to locks and latches.
Having first consulted with VOSA on the wording, in 2007 Renault began to issue customer mailings inviting owners to supply their vehicles to the dealerships for a check, clean and lubrication of the bonnet catch. Should significant corrosion be found, it was agreed that the catch would be replaced. A repeat mailing was sent in 2008. As with the formal recall process, refreshed DVLA data was used for the second mailing and a section was included to give recipients the opportunity to advise Renault of revised ownership details.
In addition to the action taken by Renault, in 2007 VOSA sent out awareness messages to all MOT garages via the VOSA publication, ‘Matters of Testing’. As you might be aware, inspection of the bonnet catch has been included in the MOT since 2002.
In conclusion, I trust you now appreciate that it is VOSA’s role to oversee the action taken by the manufacturer to satisfy themselves that a fault is not a safety issue as defined by the Code of Practice. It is not within VOSA’s remit to prove that a safety defect exists. As I have explained, we have worked with Renault to ensure that owners of Clio IIs are made aware of the action they can take to prevent the inadvertent opening of the bonnet. The dialogue between VOSA and Renault to review and monitor the situation is ongoing but it is not within VOSA’s remit to take any regulatory action in this matter."


Okay - interesting that they are trying to stand firm - as if they could easily squirm their way out of the mess that they got themselves into.

I still think they missed one important point...the part was designed as "maintenance-free" that means, it was designed and built to a standard that didn't need maintenance. This is a flaw. This is a system-spec change!

Hmmm....I still don't believe maintenance is being used in the correct context - and more importantly, if the Airline industry can shut down about a "theortical" risk, this is a "real" risk (with evidence) but they failed to stop the issue happening. They are trying to cure the problem, and not resolve the root-cause (bandage and wound comes into mind?)
 
#983 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Oh and we know that the the %age correction means that 550 MOT failures on the Clio-2 are to do with the bonnet catch failures.

This remains quite inaccurate as
1) it dates back to a 2007 statistic, per VOSA's quote in their response above;
2) it doesn't take the FACTS of cases...i.e. we have notably seen '000's (thousands) of reported cases (websites, facebook, forums, watchdog, media etc), so 550 is an EXTREMELY conservative figure and widely off the mark.

Anyway, your views welcome, as always!

Got a nice response from the Shadow Transport Minister, but will rather see post-6th May to see whether something can happen RE this safety defect matter (and the VOSA's crap policies)!
 
#984 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

If only the guy who wrote the response could see how the public view his comments. He's in the wrong job - he would make a better spin doctor or used car salesman.:d

Basically as I see it his organisation has neither the technical abilities nor common sense to address serious safety issues. From what I see he admits his department has neither the will nor powers to deal with what in fact are serious safety issues. If he feels his department doesn't have sufficient powers then why does he not come out and say so. Furthermore the motorists of this country rely on his ability to manage public safety regarding motor vehicles which in my opinion he has miserably failed to do. And in this situation the government minister concerned should either have him removed or give VOSA the correct tools to do their job. That is sufficient technical support and powers to deal with such events. This is where the relevant minister or his minions have failed the public.
In my opinion it seems that governments worldwide pandy to the motor industry and only threats such as massive law suits get them to act. I would say to such governments and departments - money is not the issue but the lives of the public for whom they were elected to serve is what's important.:mad:
Whilst the Clio bonnet issue may now be history it has had one good point and that is to expose the failures within an organistaion that has a public duty to protect the public. Similarly if we consider how some council childcare departments have failed in their public duties and been well and truly exposed as being "not fit for purpose" then I personally believe VOSA should be treated in exactly the same fashion. Sadly in these situations it normally takes some poor soul to lose their life before remedial actions is taken.

The safety catch was designed and accepted as maintainance free then obviously as it didn't come up to that standard then it is blatantly a manufacturing or design error and thus fairly falls within the remit of his organisation. Is he so blind that he can't see that. On the other hand there's none so blind that do not wish to see.:mad:

Keep up the good work Brigatti - I await the next thrilling installment.:)
 
#985 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

i have a clio 172 mk2, never maintained the bonnet catch, but always check once ive closed the bonnet it is actually closed like i would with any car bonnet. i agree with vosa and renault. its down to the owner to make sure the catch is maintained unless serviced by a dealer.
common sense says to check its properly closed. stop moaning!
 
#986 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

i have a clio 172 mk2, never maintained the bonnet catch, but always check once ive closed the bonnet it is actually closed like i would with any car bonnet. i agree with vosa and renault. its down to the owner to make sure the catch is maintained unless serviced by a dealer.
common sense says to check its properly closed. stop moaning!
Appreciate your views and opinions. But again, unless you experience the incident I don't think you will quite understand why we have a reacted like this.

If we had all know that we should check this, like checking the tyre pressure and oil, you know what we would have done.

You hit the nail on the head though, we all assumed it was checked by Renault during servicing, my vehicle had gone in for serivce about 6 weeks prior. So this ultimately was why I complained. Oh that and the fact one would have assumed that the safety cath would have not been able to fail in such a manner.

Another point. Did you know this part was designed and manufactured as "maintenance-free". This means you didn't need to check it (hence why no one did during servicing (at a Renault dealer).

So these are the points we are "moaning" about.

If you experience something which could have killed you, or those around you or in your vehicle - and more importantly, could have been prevented, means that the principles of the complaint to Renault and VOSA stand. They bungled their investigation and accused us if causing the incident. Hmmm....

Appreciate your views though.
 
#988 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

firstly i am an ex renault mechanic, secondly i had a pug 405 do exectly the same thing whilst i was on road test so i no exactly what youre saying. 405,s are known for it, cit bx were known for it . at end of day i no i didnt check the bonnet catch was shut properly, my fault simple as that.
yes i no they were designed as maintenance free but that doesnt mean common sense shouldnt prevail and check it really is shut.
most of the replys on here will be from people who opened the bonnet and failed to check it was shut, if a bonnet opened for no reason at all i would be first to agree it was a catch fault.
 
#991 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

firstly i am an ex renault mechanic, secondly i had a pug 405 do exectly the same thing whilst i was on road test so i no exactly what youre saying. 405,s are known for it, cit bx were known for it . at end of day i no i didnt check the bonnet catch was shut properly, my fault simple as that.
yes i no they were designed as maintenance free but that doesnt mean common sense shouldnt prevail and check it really is shut.
most of the replys on here will be from people who opened the bonnet and failed to check it was shut, if a bonnet opened for no reason at all i would be first to agree it was a catch fault.
I had imagined a sense of loyalty to Renault and now I know. That is fair enough.

But you are being extremely insensitive; what about those people who hadn't had their bonnet up for weeks, if not months and still had a failure? You can't say they had not shut it properly (because it hadn't been opened).

As a mechanic you should know the weaknesses of this particular device and that it sticks unless pushed manually when not perfectly aligned. And can you explain to me how YOU check that the safety catch has returned into the engaged position? It is not visible and it is not reachable either.

BTW, I found a Scenic that also had sticky return on the safety; I don't know what year it was but it had access through the grill and was visibly stuck in the disengaged position.

I too had a 405 for many years and did nearly 200k miles in it. I never had the bonnet fly open of its own accord; but you're saying yours did and infer that it is a common problem with that model and others. I also had a BX14 for some years and had no problems with that either. So, should I be flaming you because your experience does not tally with mine? I don't think so.

The fact of the matter is that Watchdog has had thousands of complaints about THE CLIO and no other car despite the claims of Renault and VOSA.

As a mechanic, are you happy with the idea that a government agency that is costing the taxpayer millions of £s annually, can turn round and say that it doesn't do its own testing and assessments when the reason for its existence is precisely that?

Why would Renault admit to such a lapsus when they know that the particular model range is on its way out through natural process of age and scrappage? If they had called in the vehicles at risk when this first came out, it would have cost millions and millions; Now, five years later, many cars have been scrapped or destroyed (possibly by a flying bonnet) so their cost of a recall would be much less. Would they have done this and taken this attitude in America? I think the answer is a resounding NO and I suspect you already know why.

It is worth noting also that Renault has been criticised for this problem in countries other than UK.

It seems to me that Renault, being in the megabuck class with major holdings in top insurance companies, has no fear of being sued by an insurer that is more than likely part of its portfolio of holdings and investments. If the insurer pays for the repairs, the cost is eventually recouped through the insured's loss of No Claims Discounts over a period of years.

This is Macchiavelli stuff as is the cost-cutting that constantly goes on at design stage. Every dollar saved is multiplied by the number of cars they hope to sell. How many millions of Clio cars have been sold so far?
 
#989 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

a turbo issue is different , there is a lot of problems with turbos right across the board, ie all manuafacturers, and thats a mechanical problem you couldnt foresee, but then having said that there is a correct way to look after a turbo car. you cant really prevent that sort of failure, you can prevent other things like your bonnet not being shut!!!
 
#993 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

a turbo issue is different , there is a lot of problems with turbos right across the board, ie all manuafacturers, and thats a mechanical problem you couldnt foresee, but then having said that there is a correct way to look after a turbo car. you cant really prevent that sort of failure, you can prevent other things like your bonnet not being shut!!!
There you go again... "there is a correct way to look after a turbo car". So, I presume that, like some other Renault mechanics before you, you think it is down to the owners.

As a mechanic working for Renault, you must have come in contact with a few worried owners who actually had to pay a lot of dosh to your employers (dealerships) because these did not exactly volunteer the information they had that the 1.9 turbos were failing left, right and centre, and that the option existed to apply for Yellow OTS support. Why would they? If they charge the client they get upwards of a grand but if they charge Renault they will do it for a pittance since the mother company does not pay its dealership £100 per hour plus VAT for warranty work or other commitments either.

Since you reiterate that "you can prevent other things like your bonnet not being shut", I hazard to ask again, "How do YOU check that the safety hook has engaged when it is neither visible nor accessible?" You are the mechanic, so explain it to me, please.
 
#994 ·
Re: Renault Clio 2 - Bonnet catch report

Hi all,

I have just purchased a clio 2 dynamique and please with it except a few little things.

I am calling Renault in the morning for the bonnet catch check. What is the check that they do and is there any new parts/changes to be done?

regards
 
#995 ·
Re: Renault Clio 2 - Bonnet catch report

as long as everyone keeps the spring and sliders on the bonnet catch well lubricated (best with coppergrease) you will expierience no problem with your bonnet catch. if you are really concerned about it give it a check after closing it by pulling upwards.

Cheers, Adam/.
 
#996 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

A copy of my letter to the Director of Operations at VOSA... I just like ripping their replies to shreds...especially when he admitted that the incident was a "threat to safety"... Hmmm... and it's not a safety defect?

"Dear Mr Fiddes,

Thank you for your letter dated and received on 30th April.

The more I read into your responses, all I can simply see is a need for VOSA to keep trying to justify the debacle of a reported safety investigation.

You keep stating the principles that:
• the issue was deemed a defect, but not classed as a safety-defect,
• remedial action was deemed necessary,
• (after external pressures) you had “requested” the manufacturer to act more responsibly (i.e. publish appropriate notifications to the vehicle owners), and
• the mechanism required maintenance (servicing and checked during MOT checks)
and this is the conclusion of your investigation.

I concur that this is a defect, but there a few things you need to consider. Can I please advise the principles that a defect which exists in a safety mechanism – which experiences a flaw (risk), should be deemed as a defect in the safety function; thus a “safety defect”. Similarly, anything which indicates a “threat to safety” is a safety defect, period. This is in-line with your own Code of Practice definition.

If you want to bring in the General Product Safety Regulations 2005, the mechanism is “not fit for purpose”, it is “not safe” (I would actually use the words, “dangerous” (it endangers lives)), it creates a “serious risk” and that the appropriate remedial actions should have been delivered as part of the formal safety “recall” process (recall notice to recall a dangerous product).

You have simply failed in all counts – so please can you do the right thing and simply accept that VOSA has not dealt with this more honourably and accept you could have done better. You should have dealt this as a safety defect, you should have enforced a recall (you have the powers to do so under UK Consumer Law), you could have enforced more improvements, i.e. a change in the design.

We can probably reference the Sales of Goods Act 1979 or Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994, I was sold something that is defective, i.e. the flaw existed when the product was sold to me originally. And that during servicing, due to the inability to service this safety mechanism (as it wasn’t deemed necessary), created an unjust risk the performance and quality of the catch mechanism on the Renault Clio Mark-2’s. The mechanism was not safe at the time of my incident.

You must accept that a mechanism which is designed to be “maintenance-free” should not fail in the way this independent 2-catch mechanism has. There is no justification for any change in the maintenance process, without accepting that the design specification has changed. It’s a shoddy design, shoddy construction, shoddy quality and more important has experience shoddy performance.

The “maintenance-free” concept is part of the mechanism or functional design specification. It may be a major quality defect if it does not provide acceptable tolerance under this very specification. Therefore it IS a safety defect under the Code of Practice. It is the functionality of the mechanism at fault, not the maintenance of the mechanism.

Your inference on maintenance falling outside of this Code of Practice, only applies if maintenance was a requirement in the first instance, which in the case of the Catch mechanism does not apply when the vehicle was delivered to me, and during the previous servicing of my Clio (undertaken by a Renault dealership).

For your reference, I’ve quoted an interesting article from an Engineering website, to help explain this point to you. There are two points to consider by referencing the article:

• Maintenance (guidelines) is part of the product’s design
• A defect exists if it does not have an acceptable maintenance plan.

In the case of the catch mechanism, mechanism-free was defined in the product design, and the mechanism did not require maintenance in the servicing schedule. This is the way the mechanism was designed and manufactured. If this has changed (which you admit it has), the safety-defect exists.

Please can you explain why VOSA does not interpret this from the article and your own Code of Practice?

I believe we have to agree to disagree on one fundamental that your own policies do imply it is defective, and falls under your Code of Practice for Safety Defects.

You cannot complete an impartial investigation without documentation – maybe your mandate is all wrong, especially if you cannot fully investigate this independent from a manufacture.

As change was deemed necessary, Renault should cover all costs for incidents that have occurred, they are ultimately responsible for the design, quality and performance of the mechanism, and its failure is the manufactures responsibility. VOSA should enforce this mandate and ensure all customers’ cases are settled. If VOSA are not responsible, then pass this to your new Transport Safety Minister to enforce it on Renault. "
 
#997 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Oh and if you wanna know VOSA's response, here it is...

"Thank you for your email of 11 May addressed to Mr Fiddes. It has been passed to me to respond.

I note the points you have made in your email but feel there is nothing more VOSA can add to the information provided in Mr Fiddes’ letter to you of 30 April and our previous extensive correspondence.

We will hold your latest correspondence on file."


The irony is that this has been sent without it going through the new DoT ministers. I've subsequently sent a separate email to the Minister of Transport, Phillip Hammond, Mike Penning (Minister responsible for road safety) and the other ministers, Theresa Villiers and Norman Baker, to ensure that they re-look at this.

I don't think I will accept VOSA's response...head and sand comes to mind.

Well, I might as well give them a second chance to response more comprehensively!
 
#998 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Looks like VOSA neither have the powers or will do deal with this problem. If that be the case then in my ipinion this organisation is not fit for purpose. I would seem they do not have the technical or legal ability to interpret the implications of what they have said or done when dealing with this scenario.
Personally I would suggest the matter be pushed up the chain over their heads but getting a proper response from the relevant department may be more difficult still as you then enter the realms of politicians and spin doctors. Furthermore it may better to concentrate on the effectiveness of VOSA rather than Renault as VOSA are charged with overseeing vehicle safety so such incompetence not only applies to the Clio bonnet incident but also their responsibilities to the public at large. Lets be honest if their written communications are anything to go by I personally would have no trust in their capabilities of overseeing MOT standards or their investigating standards, skills or resources.:mad:
 
#999 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Well I recently received another standard "thank you for your letter but no further comments to add" note from the VOSA Corporate Office (I think they are getting a tad annoyed now!)...so I decided to not directly response to this letter and instead direct my email directly to the Ministry of Transport and Under Secretary of Transport - responsible for Road Safety....that's the Conservative MP, Mike Penning.

"Mike, Angie, Jade,

I am going try not to be rude in my response here.

The reason I have not formally responded directly to VOSA in relation to their letter sent and received on 11th May 2010, is because I do not believe this matter sits with VOSA any longer.

This remains a life-threatening issue which affects thousands of motorists on the UK roads (500k+ vehicles), and the risk to the road users are far too great too simply state we “acknowledge but have no further comment to make”. I am one on a growing list of “victims” that have almost been killed by an incident of no fault of ourselves. Renault Clio Mark-2’s bonnet catch remains dangerous and are in an urgent need to be officially recalled and the safety catch mechanism replaced effectively.

VOSA are simply stating that they are no longer in the position to deal with this matter appropriately, so I would suggest that no further correspondence is directly to or from VOSA, when they have proven their inability to deal with this safety risk. This is a road safety risk that does endanger the motorist lives and has unfortunately, impacted thousands already, mainly due to the slow actions of VOSA (& Renault). This remains classed as a safety defect, and we deserve a lot better performance in the way this is investigated and treated – it’s a basic Duty of Care that as employees of the State, we are simply not receiving the right or correctly applied focus.

I look forward for a more appropriate response to this road safety matter. VOSA are not capable of “dealing with the matter” and it is quite unacceptable to receive such replies going further. Thank you."


I received an interesting response today! Actually I read it and laughed so loudly my boss had to ask me what was up (I showed him the response I got, and he also laughed! He praised me top marks for being persistent though! Ha).

Here's the response from the DoT representative:

"Angie,

I’ve spoken to VOSA who are dealing with this issue and they are going to write back to Mr Brigatti. Please don not reply to any of his emails and engage in any correspondence with this man.

He has been writing to the Department for many years and won’t stop.

If he becomes persistent with his emails we can arrange to have them blocked.

Thanks,

Jade Baird
Diary Secretary and Assistant Private Secretary
Mike Penning
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State
for Transport
020 7944 4406"


I really don't care what they think of me - this simply shows that they have no respect for any of the victims (no matter which Government is in power), and that they think that they can walk all over the victims. It is simply not acceptable. This people are employees of the state, they are public service members of staff - and we pay their wages. The parliamentary teams email address are on the Parliament website and ultimately the DoT are responsible for VOSA's mandates. So as we have a complaint against VOSA, this is a complaint that the DoT need to look into!!

As I said, I really didn't take this personally, but since we have this email, it's going to be distributed widely now! Oh, she tried to recall the email a few minutes later - but too late :)

I wonder if Jade Baird has been asked into Mike Penning's office yet?

Oh and my response...well a bit of irony, but here it is:

"Thank you Jade for your note. At least you are being truthful on how you feel.

Shame this is how you intend to treat a public safety measure.

The reason we have remained on the case is because UK motorist's lives are at risk.

I look forward for your apology."


Your views very welcome!
 
#1,002 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

"Angie,

I’ve spoken to VOSA who are dealing with this issue and they are going to write back to Mr Brigatti. Please don not reply to any of his emails and engage in any correspondence with this man.

He has been writing to the Department for many years and won’t stop.

If he becomes persistent with his emails we can arrange to have them blocked.

Thanks,

Jade Baird
Diary Secretary and Assistant Private Secretary
Mike Penning
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State
for Transport
020 7944 4406"
I'm absolutely flabbergasted by how rude this response was.... It's absolutely disgusting that these moronic souls are involved at the highest level of organisations responsible for public safety, let alone the fact that they are utterly unaccountable for, and irresponsible in, their decisions and I sincerely hope a severe earbashing is in on the way from her superiors.
 
#1,000 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

The memories of Watergate spring to mind - "there'll be no whitewash in the Whitehouse.:rofl::rofl:

I'm off for a few beers to celebrate how the power of the internet and email plus incompetence make such a wonderful concoction.:beer:

And there was me thinking the foot-and-mouth outbreak ended years ago.:confused:

Is there any chance the press may just get to know about this faux-pas - Oh I do hope so:crazy:

I remember my old granny saying "people are promoted to the level of their own incompetence" - now I know exactly what she meant.:)
 
#1,001 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

Yes indeedy - this email and it's mail trail is going to get circulated very widely...lets put in another way, I think this Jade person will be passed over for any DoT promotions at the moment :) hahaha!
 
#1,006 ·
Re: BBC Watchdog report :: Faulty Renault Clio bonnet catches

...lets put in another way, I think this Jade person will be passed over for any DoT promotions at the moment :) hahaha!
Well.... it all depends on who gave her the job in the first place, and "who her friends or relatives in high places" are.:cool:

You don't think they get these jobs because they are efficient do you?:d

Next election, join the campaign but make sure you're on the winning side.:d